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The last two NB were probably my favourite kits to be fair. I think NB actually offered more money per season but it was the distribution of Nike that far outshone NB. NB just cant compete with the industry monster that is Nike.
A nice looking kit is good yeah but I think it takes second place to a more lucrative commercial deal. Besides, maybe Nike will surprise us all and play a blinder!
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Adlab remember VAR was going to be the death knell of all debate 😀
Nine, respect your opinion, but it does then beg the question what is the point of even having linesmen if they have been told to keep their flags down and leave it to VAR? Surely that’s their main job.
Anyway I’ll leave it here with this one, I’m sure the topic will run on and on!
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Nine are you seeing the problem this causes?
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Regarding offsides, whilst I think they work from a technical point of view but is anyone else noticing that the linesmen seem more reluctant to put their flag up on close decisions? Maybe they feel safe in the knowledge that if it’s a goal then it will be reviewed so they play on with no harm done.
My issue is, and there was an incident like this in the Man Utd vs LFC game, that they play on thinking as above but a goal does not happen but instead a corner, so no review obviously. What if Utd scored from the corner? Which on this occasion needing a very good head behind from VvD to avoid doing so.
The human side of it all needs looking at. First and foremost the officials on the pitch need to up their game and not be reliant on the technology, it should only be as a back up. I feel VAR has made our officials take the easy route too often and thus have a negative impact on the game.
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Yeah I saw their goal live and it wasn’t good from Lovren although there were two other players nearby too (Gomez and Fabinho?) that didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory.
There’s an article in the Echo this morning saying that the Ox/Keita experiment is unlikely to be used again (maybe when chasing a goal?) as it put Fabinho under too much strain as the only defense minded midfielder. It will mean two extra options however. I mentioned the other day I don’t think we need to buy a new creative midfielder, we just need to use the players we got. This mean use Ox, or Keita, when the situation requires them, and likewise for Henderson, Milner and Gini. We are top of the league without using Ox or Keita so hopefully with them we can do even better. We have good options in midfield.
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Guys I couldn’t watch the whole match last night as had to watch the Sky conference around the grounds things so would be interested in what you made of it. Especially the midfield.
Keita made more passes and more interceptions than anyone else yet i read on the bbc blog he had some very good moments but was then on the periphery of the game. Thoughts? And how did Ox do apart from the excellent goals?
Seemed we were opened up a few times too easily early on.
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Nil it depends on the opposition. Henderson will be first choice against the better teams because he offers much more to the overall team. He doesn’t just play in his own little space at all.
Should be 1-1 nothing wrong with that header.
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Interesting line up for Liverpool tonight with Ox and Keita joining Fabinho in midfield. It’s a midfield many have been asking for so let’s see how it goes.
Gomez misses out despite TAA and Matip injured so I’m guessing he’s not convincing Klopp in training. Thought he would be VvD’s partner this season but looks like he’s fallen behind Lovren for CB and Milner for RB.
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Pagan you cannot realistically factor in all the tolerances to get an exact representation, you just have to go with the nominal. Takes the 11mm non goal between City and Liverpool last season. Did the computer take into account the tolerance build up between goal line and ball diameter? Did it take into account the dynamic distortion of the ball? If it did maybe it would of been a goal, but that is unrealistic in my opinion.
For offsides and handball VAR is working. The technical side is fine. It’s the human side when it comes to errors and reviewing them I have an issue with.
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“you’re basically arguing that getting the wrong decisions in football is better than getting it right”
Um… not sure where you got that from. I am saying it’s ruining my enjoyment because even with VAR they are getting it hopelessly wrong. VAR is a tool to aid the very difficult job of refereeing, but it seems to me that either the wrong people are in place, or they are working to incorrect guidelines, whichever, it’s a farce. It’s a lot more frustrating seeing the ref make an incorrect decision, wait a couple of minutes for some wally to conclude that the he agrees with the incorrect decision.
So I’m arguing getting the wrong decisions in football when you have the capability to get it right is worse than just getting it wrong on your own. VAR is not working in my opinion, and looking at the press and pundits seems I’m not alone.
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I know it works well in other sports, I’m not against VAR in football if it works correctly, but at the moment it doesn’t. Having teething issues doesn’t cut the mustard for me, not at elite level sports with millions of pounds floating around.
And how long do they need to sort out these problems? It’s mentioned every week on the back pages the issues, pundits have lambasted and it seems fans are far from happy. But we are now 180 games played into the season and still the same issues are happening. One decision over-ruled! Not a single ref has consulted the pitch side monitor! (I didn’t even know the PL had them to be honest).
I have to say it is ruining my enjoyment of the game. I was even swearing at the TV when City didn’t get a clear penalty the other day and I was desperate for them to drop points, that shows how I feel about it! 😀
edit: and I’m not even pot-bellied!
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VAR is getting the offside and handballs correct as they are pretty much black and white with the new rules. Where VAR is failing is when a decision has to be made that goes against the match day ref. A foul leading to a goal or a penalty claimed that has been dismissed.
The mandate is a clear and obvious error. I believe the threshold to be deemed clear and obvious is set too high. Coupled by lesser experienced refs monitoring VAR and maybe reluctant to go against their peers very few decisions have been correctly overturned. In fact once so far according to the telegraph.
Theres a meeting soon between the top european leagues respective VAR people to see how it’s going. But as its PGMOL reporting about themselves I’d expect everything to be just fine and nothing be done.
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“Although yesterday for the United v Liverpool game I suspect it was a recognised Referee as the VAR as it was the only game going on.”
It was David Coote assisted by Marc Perry.
Nope, I haven’t either.
VAR worked for Mane’s goal, whether the rules are right or not is a whole other debate…
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Agree about the clear and obvious error thing, but then refs play on thinking if they missed something or have doubts they can rely on VAR. Both leaving it to each other. The system is flawed and should be suspended in my opinion.
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It’s tactics Nil, that’s all, nothing to do with Utd wanting to stop Liverpool. Utd got their tactics spot on and it was to their strengths. Against teams like Newcastle is where Utd struggle as they are the ones having to force the game with a risk of the counter and they don’t have the creative players to do that.
That Fletcher article you linked was actually a very good analysis, mentioning things like the way the Utd forwards ran the channels etc. There’s a lot more to it than just “just play a ‘back 7’”.
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What’s Origi’s wife got to do with it?! 😀
I don’t like signalling out players like Firmino, or Henderson as done dozens of times elsewhere. Ask why Firmino wasn’t good, for me that is usually the tactics and/or the tactics of the other team. Utd did their homework and defended brilliantly, especially against the fullbacks, so Firmino had little to no service. That is down to Klopp, he needs to become more flexible against these stubborn low block teams (feels odd categorising Utd like that!).
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Disagree with Ed, both on Klopp being disrespectful and that Liverpool were being cautious. Utd, despite being at home, played with an ultra defensive low block like every man and his dog knew they would. Liverpool had something like 67% possession? Liverpool played their usual 3 midfielders and to some that may seem negative but our attacking strength is down the wings and those 3 in the middle usually compliment that style perfectly as it lets Robertson and TAA bomb on. Utd knew this and got their defensive tactics spot on by nullifying the Liverpool fullbacks. As I mentioned in the Liverpool going forward thread, my gripe was that Klopp didn’t predict this from Utd and start with more emphasis on creativity through the middle. As he says, Utd always defend against Liverpool.
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After yesterday’s frustration the topic of the midfield as risen again. For most of the game Liverpool were poor but I don’t think you can single out individual players. For me the system was wrong and the person to blame is Klopp.
Everyone knows that Utd were going to play a low block defence and let Liverpool have the ball as much as they want in non-threatening areas. Usually the main creative aspect of our play is down the wings with very advanced full backs and the movement of the front 3. Fab, Gini and Hendo, which seems at the moment to be Klopp’s default midfield, are brilliant at protecting the fullbacks, gaining the ball back and quickly recycling it. But what they can’t do is create space for the fullbacks if there is no space due to the opposition. Utd played this very well, restricting the wing attacks to a minimum and said you have to play through us if you want a goal, which is another thing those 3 are not very good at against an organised low block defence.
I was disappointed when I saw the team sheet. I wanted either Ox or Keita as the more advanced midfielder to give that extra drive and creativity in the middle. I would of dropped Henderson. Klopp made changes in the second half which did make a difference, Lallana and Keita looked sharp. Keita I thought looked very good in his very small cameo, getting into good positions and speeding up the tempo.
But why couldn’t Liverpool start like that knowing how Utd would play? Does he not trust Keita and Ox yet, maybe due to their injury problems? I think Klopp has a tendency to very slowly ease players back.
Against Genk I would like to see Keita start, surely this is the best way to get him back up to speed. Resort back to the usual 3 against Spurs where I am sure more space will be afforded to the fullbacks.
I disagree to those saying we need a new midfielder, I think we already have what we need we just need to use it better. And if you get another that would mean either Ox or Keita would become surplus to requirements and I think it’s too early to say that.
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Nil you are not wrong regarding the people behind VAR, that is where the problem lies. I read somewhere that the VAR assistant refs are actual refs belonging to the same organisation as the match officials. The problem is, they are not Premier League refs as there are not enough to be spared. So you have these lesser ranked refs having to make decisions against their superior colleagues which I believe they are too scared to contradict them. I’m not just talking about yesterdays game Utd vs Liverpool, there’s been many occasions this season when even as a neutral you are left shaking your head as a clear and obvious error fails to be overturned. (not seen all the games this weekend but heard there were a fair few contentious decisions!)
A couple of interesting quotes coming from the Utd Liverpool game:
‘Firstly, the on-field referee didn’t think it was a foul and VAR checked/decided that it wasn’t a clear and obvious error to not award the foul,’ the PGMOL told Sky Sports. ‘Secondly, VAR isn’t re-refereeing matches, there is contact but VAR was comfortable it wasn’t enough to disallow the goal.’
Klopp said: ‘Mr Atkinson let the game run I’m sure because there is VAR. For me it was a clear foul.’
Are VAR and the refs leaving it to each other to make decisions?
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