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I’d say only Zidane could formally be considered a truly great player out of that lot and he went straight into managing a load of world class players at Real Madrid. And Ancelotti, Conte & Pep all pretty much went straight into managing top teams. So it’s a harder one to decipher, though I think you could throw someone like Klopp into any club and lift them, whereas if you threw Zidane in at Villa, not sure how he’d do.
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Also Gerrard did take the job knowing the players he had, and there was much talk of the great young players the club had.
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That’s why I don’t think great players tend to make great managers Nine. I think they get frustrated they can’t coach their own natural ability. Villa now conceded 6 goals in their 3 games this season, which averages 2 per game. Got to sort that out or he’s in big trouble.
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Ed, Gerrard won just 3 in 14 now. Just looks frustrated a lot to me. Can’t seem him lasting long at the mo. Think Lampard has quite a bit of credit with the Everton fans after last season’s escapades. Don’t think Rodgers in trouble just yet.
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Gerrard under pressure. Thought he might be this season.
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Thats the key question Ed. Casemiro strikes me as a Conte type signing, not a Ten Hag one. That’s not necessarily to say he won’t do well, but again the recruitment policy seems at odds with the managerial direction. Because Man Utd still have the resources to spend £50 mill on a 30 year old established Real Madrid midfielder, its probably the easier and less risky option from the owner’s point of view than scouring around looking for someone more in tune to the manager when they don’t seem to have that kind of recruitment resource in place.
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You’d think he will have to adapt to some extent Lucky after the first few games. But you’d imagine the bulk of his coaching so far has been to play like they have been, so to suddenly change all that is difficult and not ideal for the players. Maybe they won’t play at the back so often, so do they just defend more & play on the counter? Not ideal to re-adjust to that.
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No disrespect to Utd, but they’re even more open than last season. So if we don’t get a result on Monday, we really do have a big problem. And with a lot of his time spent with the players so far coaching them his way, is Ten Hag really going to change and adapt a lot for the game?
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I do think the Man Utd fans are quite influential on this though, and I think it’s part of the reason why Solksjaer and Ten Hag were appointed. As I say though, these managers, having more limited experience and not having worked with a raft of top players means they need more help from the club in recruiting players. So is protesting and hoping the Glazers sell realistic on the fans part to get what they want with these managers?
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Foxy, not here to necessarily defend Ole, but I think he still probably uplifted the football after Mourinho and was perhaps pragmatic to the players he had. I think he was seen as someone to help bed in and develop young players too – so the Man Utd way in that sense. And then the club maybe thought it could bring in a more experienced attacking manager in after that who would keep to those principles.
Additional Edit: Arsenal are trying to do that with Arteta who has played a range of football over his time but that has been better executed than Man Utd, even if there is the odd question mark over Arteta.
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Ed, is the managerial issue at Utd not also down to being obsessed with finding the right manager who plays the “Man Utd way”? Sure, they’ve somewhat compromised on that in recent history with the appointments of Van Gaal & Mourinho who were appointed you sense as more temporary managers to try and win some silverware and so keep their stock value at a reasonable level (which both did).
There seems to be an age old debate about recruitment and who buys the players and if the manager should have full control, and that if he doesn’t, he can be sympathised with. I think a manager, particularly when they first arrive at a club, is always going to favour players they’ve previously worked with and will try and ask the board to sign them. But as time goes on, they are going to be more reliant on the club recruitment team to find targets – particularly the up and coming players who are harder to find. But ever since their obsessive journey to find a long term man who ideally plays the Man Utd way, this is going to put more emphasis on club recruitment because the long term managers Man Utd are appointing – Moyes, Solkjaer & Ten Hag – haven’t really worked with many top end players at previous clubs so they are going to be more heavily reliant on the club to find them top players. So if the club recruitment isn’t right, these managers are going to be under more pressure.
In short then, the Man Utd fan needs to decide whether they’re better wanting a winning experienced manager in or a long term “Man Utd way” manager in. If the former, they’ll probably have some success. If they insist on the latter, they’re almost having to hope the Glazers either change things with recruitment or sell the club – which some may say is unrealistic – even if the fans keep protesting.
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Here’s one for you Brian. Peter Swales in 1978 wanting City to become the best team in the country. Does demonstrate that the game has been about big business for a while now.
#OnThisDay 1978: Manchester City weren't messing around when it came to taking care of business.
"We are dedicated to raise every penny we can because we want the best team in the country." pic.twitter.com/yfOqH6hqL2
— BBC Archive (@BBCArchive) August 18, 2022
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Would Ratcliffe not first be looking to getting a foot in the door as to speak, as Simon Jordan appears to suggest here?
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Stadium needs work as well Brian. And training facility I believe. That won’t be cheap either.
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According to Wikipedia, the Glazers bought Man Utd for around £800 million back in 2005. According to Forbes they’re now worth around £3.7 billion. So the asset has increased by nearly 5 times in just 17 years. And still there are billionaires queuing up to buy these clubs. The sky seems to be the limit.
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The problem for Utd seems to be they are even easier to play against than last season with the space at the back. Is Ten Hag suddenly going to change for next week’s game after coaching so much playing out from the back? Hard to see. It’s very hard not to see Poch coming in at some point this season – he’s got premier league experience and will fit in with the longer term strategy – he’d also probably have bought in more premier league ready players. I think Ten Hag is a pipe dream the club has got caught up in.
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I think a problem at Utd is the owners just seem to be reacting to appease the fans – I think from signing Ronaldo, appointing Ole full time, buying big name players in previous years, appointing Ten Hag now – it all seems to follow the fans wishes but with little or no depth to how they plan to make it all work. Indeed, the club hasn’t won a trophy for 5 years now, so these appointments in recent years to install a more long term man seem to be making things worse for the club. Most managers in the modern game now only last 2-3 seasons at best, with managers like Klopp & Guardiola being exceptions. So there’s no direction – when Ole was on his last legs last season, the club didn’t have a clue what to do. To chop and change suddenly for someone like Conte was not going to happen because there was too much inertia in setting themselves up down a path of a longer term appointment. Meanwhile the clubs just seems to keep blowing money in the transfer market. It’s like watching a tragedy play out year on year.
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Indeed Brian, I think Klopp came across a perfect storm a few seasons ago with that front 3, a very efficient midfield, and a back five with a very good new goalkeeper and Van Dijk introduced. And some of that has been lost and it’s very hard to recreate it. Problem is City are so good at sustaining their success.
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Football is a game won by the team that makes the fewest mistakes. I’m afraid for all Trents world class ability up top, he costs us too much at the back over a season. Yes, the team’s won big trophies with him, but not the same amount as City have over recent years. The midfielders are also aging and out of form and so exacerbating the problems. There are also issues up top. As I’ve said before, Klopp can paper over these problems with great effect with the high work rate and press of the team. But I think its now got to the point where he’s struggling to do that. C’est la vie.
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It’s a testament to Klopp he was able to get the team within 1 point of City last season. What he’s created is a street fighter type side as I think Gary Neville said last season. But as I said in the predictions thread, the midfield is aging now and isn’t what it was. And up top they’ve lost the magic and fizz that front 3 had a few seasons ago and its to be seen how well Nunez will develop. So whilst I didn’t think we’d start this poorly, I just can’t see Klopp repeating last season’s achievements. Also at what point do we say Trent is becoming a liability regardless of his passing ability.
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