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I still don’t think City have been tested this season (apart from in the CL) and I’m afraid I don’t see Chelsea threatening them this evening. Chelsea have played some lovely stuff at times this season, but they ain’t going to out City, City. I fear they may play into City’s hands if they do so. If they are to threaten them, they really need to get in City’s faces and disrupt them.
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As expected, Jose and the team have few issues getting motivated in the big games this season. But doesn’t that just show, regrettably, how players are now playing for themselves when the big cameras are on them, but against the lesser sides, the performance drops off as the TV audience level drops. Same used to be true of Liverpool who often performed in the big games but less so against the lesser sides. One things for sure then – that clash between the two on Dec 16 will be huge. Jose no doubt already planning that one, and Klopp has yet to beat a Mourinho Man Utd side.
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Keita’s close control is something to behold. A goal is not far away which should really help him settle down in the team.
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The top 2 sides now starting to pull away.
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Alfie, for the record I’m not particularly anti-Mourinho, I’m just looking at the pluses and minuses. As for him not wanting to blood youth, my main point was that I think Mourinho is a here and now manager – he’s less about developing than he is about invoking his tactics and mentality on to the team. And he’ll do that on the best on what he has to work with – e.g. Mourinho may play Rashford but has Rashford significantly improved under Mourinho?
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Alfie, I don’t doubt he has played a lot of the youth. But how much of that was his choice? The club has tried to bend him towards such a thing very idealistically when he’s not really that kind of manager.
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Would it be fair to say Pochettino is a better man manager than Mourinho but that Mourinho is a more of a winner in terms of tactics in big games and getting his teams generally over the line with a strong mentality over a much shorter term period? And because he builds such a strong siege mentality, when things start going wrong he doesn’t have the temperament to put things right because of his passion and paranoia for control. Poch’s record vs the top 6 is very mixed for example (ok, he may not have the funds of other clubs but it’s the *way* he’s lost some of those games tactically and mentally that’s concerning). But Mourinho is a manager for the here and now, he’s not interested in developing teams from scratch or fielding youngsters which is why the Man Utd job was never really right for him and why he was never backed in the way he expected. So two very different managers with positives and negatives. Pochettino certainly looks a better fit if Man Utd are determined to go down the path of developing and blooding their youth. And Poch, with more money could obviously do more things. But I’m still to be convinced of his big game mentality to win the big prizes. And to be fair the same could be said of Klopp whose record in finals is very poor indeed – but both managers get a better press because they’re more affable.
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I don’t think City have actually been tested this season. They beat an unsettled new Arsenal team on the opening day, drew against what was an average Liverpool performance, albeit beat a Man Utd side partly in disarray, but have lost 4/6 points to Lyon, probably the only side to give them a real game this season. I think a lot of the teams in the premier league have lost their games vs Man City before a ball has even been kicked such is the psychological effect that City now have. If Chelsea perform like they’ve shown this season and really take the game to City, they’ve got half a chance.
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Again Mak, I wouldn’t disagree with much of that. I think the situation with Jose can be summarised thus:
He is a very effective and tactically astute manager who, when he finds a good chemistry with players can be extremely successful. However, eventually he starts rubbing people up the wrong way and hence the squad needs to be freshened up regularly to stop anything lingering and getting out of hand. What has exacerbated things in more recent years has been that some players as I say are now untouchable, and will thus win any battle that Jose picks with them. Hence Pogba looks to be winning the battle with Jose because the club have invested more in the former. So inevitably there is irreconcilable discord between the players and Jose and the manager will always be the fall guy in such situations.
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I don’t actually disagree Banjo, I’m simply saying if you have him as manager he’s going to cost you a fortune because you need to keep bringing players in to keep harmony in the team to stop anything lingering or getting out of hand. Even after he won the league with Chelsea in his second stint, things went south very quickly when they didn’t freshen things up the summer after. Had Man Utd backed him more this summer, it still may not have been enough.
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Klopp is like a kid at Christmas on the touch line. He just loves the fun of it all even if he ain’t winning. I thought the interview Sarri gave about him told you everything about him:
“Chelsea boss Maurizio Sarri has lifted the lid of standing next to Jurgen Klopp on the touchline, after the Italian shared a discussion he and the Liverpool boss had at Stamford Bridge last month.
Sarri’s side were moments away from a crucial three points over the Reds before Daniel Sturridge’s late equaliser rescued a point for the away side.
But despite staring defeat in the face in the closing stages, Klopp kept smiling – as the former Napoli coach recalled warmly.
“There are moments when the grand spectacle of it all convinces you to put aside any regrets,” he told Corriere dello Sport. “Even if you concede at the last minute or five minutes into stoppage time.
“That was an extraordinary show. Just 10 minutes earlier, I saw Klopp looking at me with the game going on.
“I asked: ‘Why are you smiling?’ He replied: ‘Aren’t you having fun?’
“I said: ‘so much’ and he added: ‘me too.’ He was losing at the time.
“Even after the equaliser, remembering that moment, we hugged like two old friends.
“I’m sure he would’ve done the same even if Liverpool hadn’t equalised.
Source from: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/maurizio-sarri-lifts-lid-liverpool-15276563
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Banjo, that’s a fair point. But if you’re going to install Mourinho as manager, then you need to constantly freshen things up because things go very stale with him very quickly if you don’t do that. And it’ll obviously cost you big to keep doing that. If Man Utd did have a change of heart now and decided to back him, then it’s now too late, that’s the point I was making. Too much damage has been done in recent months. Also the game has changed so much now that certain players in the dressing room are now untouchable, even to the manager.
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Man Utd have missed the boat on backing Mourinho – it’s too late to back him now with players, they should have done it in the summer. And now irreversible damage is being done to Mourinho and the relationship with his players as things have becomes increasingly fraught. I don’t think the board know what the hell to do now. They have paddled their way up a certain creek. Both directions now look unattractive – they don’t really want to keep paddling on this course but they don’t really want to have to have to paddle back from whence they came and start all over again. Hence you’d think they’ll look for a temporary quick fix by putting in an interim manager to lift things in the short term and limp to the end of the season and overhaul things then, though they might still think they can limp home with Mourinho. I think top 4 is off the table now regardless of whether they changed managers. If the board had any sense, they’d now write off this season and finally start planning for the longer term strategy and direction of travel of the club. To keep throwing more money at things now would be plain daft. Just cut your losses and start again next season with a new man.
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As good as Liverpool’s front 3 have been, you always need to have something different in your locker. Huge luck in Origi’s goal obviously, but he had the instinct to go for the ball. Liverpool’s front 3’s problems are partly rooted in midfield and partly because I think they’ve become undroppable under Klopp no matter how they play.
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It seems Klopp is increasingly becoming idealistic in thinking that the team in its current format is capable of winning games. As soon as I saw the familiar line up in midfield of Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum & the usual front 3, I thought – what is going to be different here?? Three almost identical (albeit hard working) midfielders and a front 3 out of form but always guaranteed a start. It never once filled me with any considerable hope. Why didn’t Klopp, for this one off big game, at least go with the press?? What’s the old quote about repeating the same formula and expecting different results?? We’re hugely constrained by our limited options in midfield (without Keita/Fabinho up to scratch) and we’re severely limited up top with 3 players that Klopp just can’t or won’t drop because he doesn’t trust anyone else.
I think this is the key problem for Klopp this season – he doesn’t trust the rest of his squad enough yet to change things. So the line ups don’t change and neither do the performances. You can see the dilemma he’s in. He must surely have a big eye on the January window now.
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On the other thread Mak, you correctly allude to us being fortunate to not have lost some league games in the PL this season – yet we’ve lost both away games so far in the CL this season because we weren’t fortunate enough to hang on or we just didn’t perform. And this away game to PSG is huge in terms of the group. So a big big test ahead.
Here’s a question – we obviously did well to beat Watford – but would that *performance* be good enough to beat PSG away? Far from sure it would be. This is why, regardless of how good the table suggests we’re doing, we need to improve if we have eyes on the bigger prizes this season.
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Trying to improve something can not only be very difficult but can quite often make something worse in other cases, as has been discussed above. It actually becomes a discussion about trade offs. There is no silver bullet.
Here is a good analogy. In F1, they introduced the halo above the drivers cockpit for safety reasons to prevent drivers heads being injured from other cars potentially driving upwards towards them or flying over the top of them. And I think in one race this year it did save someone in one incident. However, in yesterday’s race, the driver Hulkenberg was flipped upside down after a crash, with a fire starting at the back of the car. Because of the halo system, he was trapped in the car and could not get out until the marshals could flip the car back over (previously he’d have been able to get out without the halo). It could have been much worse.
The full story for those interested is here:
So as with anything, you have to look at the big picture and try and find the best balance and what you want to prioritise.
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Sean, I’m actually being positive in the sense that I think City can actually be beaten this season if we get our attack back on track. The fact that we are just 2 points behind a top City side is actually hugely encouraging. I think we all know this team can get better, but this opportunity *has* to be seized upon so I make no apology for being over critical. We can’t guarantee some players won’t leave next season or we suffer bad injuries – whilst City are beatable, the opportunities to challenge and beat them are much harder to find for a club like us who haven’t had the same resources.
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Klopp remember, has previously admitted that his philosophy is to entertain first, with the result second (though he’d have argued that entertaining well would lead to a good result). So what’s happened this season to Klopp?? Has he really adapted to the league and adapted his philosophy?? Or has something else happened?? I’d actually argue for the latter. There’s no doubt that we have much better playing staff at the back which has transformed the defence – and whilst Klopp has helped to bring those players in, and is no doubt happy with all these wins, I’m not sure the *way* we are currently playing and attacking was part of his plan at the start of the season. It’s all very makeshift in midfield and it’s broken the attacking flow of the front 3. That couldn’t have been part of his plan? Now of course we’re still doing enough to win games – but we aren’t doing enough to win the big top 6 clashes having drawn 3 and won 1. Klopp *cannot* be happy with that. Coutinho and Ox are two huge players that have yet to be replaced this season, and Klopp must be wary of that. If Liverpool are to overtake City, they need to find that person sooner rather than later. Surely Keita, our £65 million pound man, has to start getting some more games soon. As far as I’m concerned this team is only flying with one engine (the defence) and a spluterring second engine (attack). It may be enough to take down the lesser sides, but if it can’t blow the bigger sides down, you can forget any hope of a title. And as for this feeling that City are unbeatable – are they?? Imagine if Liverpool had the attack last season to the defence this season. I’d say we’d be at the top now, clear of City. We’ve got to seize this opportunity whist we’re still well in it!
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