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Pitch is killing the ball. Like watching a premier league game on a winter park.
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Perhaps so Banjo, but I do think in the cases where a defender is lunging (be it with their arm or leg), it’s basically a sign that it’s a desperate last ditch action and such actions are always going to be more risky. So I have less sympathy with the defenders in such situations.
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Just to add – the action by the defender may not have been enough for Lingard to go down – however, the desperate (and arguably unfair) actions arguably were enough for Lingard to lose concentration in possession of the ball for a few seconds in a crucial area of the pitch. Should that not be punished? Supppse Lingard *hadn’t* gone down. Would his movement towards goal still not have been compromised compared to if the defender had never tried to arm lunge him out the way? There are obviously fair ways a defender can use to compromise an attackers flow (using their body) and there are unfair ways (desperate lunges).
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Banjo, I do sympathise with a lot of what you say. But the problem is as I said on the other thread, if we start a harsh crackdown on such things we risk creating new injustices if a player genuinely couldn’t stay on his feet (particularly if he had momentum) but was ruled to have dived.
In these situations the actions of the defender often gets overlooked. Now it may be that the action above by the defender was not that bad, but if you look at the whole incident why is the defender putting his arm across Lingard in the first place? This is the action of a desperate defender who has lost his man. And then look immediately after the incident – he holds his hands up as though he hasn’t done anything (when he has). It may still be soft, but it’s the defender that has ultimately created the opportunity for Lingard to go down by way of a desperate action.* Late edit: Can one really feel sorry for the defender in such a situation?
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I had a feeling City would drop points tonight. I’m not convinced they’re the same side as last season. I know they had injuries over Christmas but to still lose 3 out of 4 games over that period indicated that there was something deeper that was wrong. Liverpool still have to do the business tomorrow.
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I think the “ego” line after the fa cup loss was basically Poch saying “look, the cups are a bonus, but we ain’t going to compromise the league for them.”
I think the “couldn’t sleep after the Chelsea game” line was understandable – even if you don’t particularly value cups you’re still going to go for it if you find yourself on the cusp of a final. And if you lose on penalties it’s a very difficult one to take and that is going to keep you awake at night. So I think both these positions can be consistent with each other in this context.
What a lot of this does demonstrate though is the increasing gulf between the objectives of an owner vs the objectives of the fans.
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Also, our squad depth is still pretty poor.
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Nine, and Liverpool have actually struggled to replace that Coutinho figure in the team this season and have missed that link man from midfield to attack, so there’s an argument we’re now a bit weaker in that area. So even though the defence has improved it’s never quite so black and white to say everything is now better for it. Indeed a lot of my belief that we could do it this year was based on Keita hitting the ground running. But that hasn’t happened because it’s very difficult to immediately replace quality like for like.
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Nine, can you actually give an example of when reinvesting money from selling your top players has actually worked? Surely *keeping* your top players is the only way you can move upwards?
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Poch did similar at Southampton. Seem to remember they had the opportunity to go into the last 8 in the FA Cup in 2014 vs Sunderland and he named a much changed side. This was a Southampton team that finished 8th in the league so I don’t quite know what Poch was resting his players for. And yet had he gone for it he may have had half a chance of getting somewhere and really putting that Southampton team on the map (Hull made the final that year). But many foreign managers don’t seem to see the wisdom of such things.
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Moyes, Van Gal, & Mourinho. Who would have predicted they’d have been the 3 managers to succeed Fergie?? They’re all quite ordered more conservative managers, and isn’t it interesting that as soon as you throw in a manager that throws a bit of caution to the wind and goes for it more a la Fergie, they look like the side of old again. Man Utd’s playing philosophy has been at odds with its managerial philosophy for some years and finally that’s changed. Not really rocket science is it??
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There’s a reason why clubs used to be known as “community clubs”. Because that’s what they were primarily for, the local community.
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Fergie represented the gold standard. In terms of being able to coach and develop the kids he worked with through the different eras, his man management, dealing with egos, the desire, ruthlessness and spirit he invoked whist also playing very attacking and effective football AND knowing exactly when to make a substitution/change, he pretty much had it all. And I bet his overall net spend wasn’t that high over the years. Tactically maybe not the absolute best (which maybe cost him winning more CLs), but that could be forgiven given his many other incredible achievements. It was raw pragmatic management at its absolute best.
Guardiola is undoubtedly a great coach and winner, and he’s almost singlehandedly evolved the game in recent years. But if Fergie was the best pragmatic manager, I think Guardiola is the best idealistic manager there’s been in terms of actually conveying his complicated messages over to the players whilst ensuring they don’t fall out their finely tuned groove (which is actually very difficult when you’re coaching that kind of football). And he analyses every minute detail including that of the opposition.
Which is better? You’re comparing apples with oranges really, but you’d get better value for money out of Fergie. When comparing different approaches like pragmatism vs highly tactical I’m sure there was an amusing quote from Fergie when he said something like “You can play chess for 10 hours and still lose. Know what I mean?”
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Nine, Conte may have lasted longer but I suspect it would have come at the price of winning, so he’d have been sacked anyway most probably. Since Chelsea have lost the likes of Terry, Lampard, Drogba, etc (i.e. natural winners that kept the dressing room together), they seem to be struggling to sustain any success. As I say, no team has won back to back titles for 10 years.
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Nine, suppose Conte had been calmer, more charismatic and wasn’t bothered about controlling transfers. Do you really think he’d still be in a job today?
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Nine, hence nothing will change this situation. And Conte then was just another Mourinho – too fiery and ruthless to last. But suppose he was much more charismatic and less fiery, and he’d lasted longer at Chelsea. He’d then have to toe more to the line of the players. Could he have continued to be successful under those conditions?? Klopp is undoubtedly a very charismatic manager and therefore lasted longer. But he has lost his last six finals and still not won anything. Similar with Poch. So it could be said from that that you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
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But does the question not have to be asked of why he wanted his own players?, i.e. because he could then better control things and look to develop the success. A lot of managers have this battle. He could have done it in a better way, but even if he did, he’d be driving his ahead against a brick wall because the players are so protected. And what was the alternative? Imagine being offered a management job in any other walk of life to be told, “We’d like to offer you the job. But oh, just a few things – you can’t criticise or upset any of the staff. Oh, and by the way, some of the staff are untouchable…Good luck!” It’s crazy, but sadly, it’s cheaper for clubs to sack the manager than obviously to sack the players.
If this recent outburst doesn’t work for Sarri, who will come to his aid and support him??
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And just to briefly add, this is why it’s so important to have those more local players in the team because they give a manager allies in the dressing room.
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Nine, I think there’s a case that in both Mourinho’s and Sarri’s case the players may not be fully buying into some of the things their managers want. But it still does demonstrate that a manager now has to bend to the players rather than the other way around. And that obviously makes life very difficult.
The counter argument here may be that such managers need to better man manage some players rather than do it publicly. And that such public criticism is just a sign that the manager is struggling to win over the players. There’s probably something in that as Moos alluded to above. But either way, it now just shows that a manager needs every single possible attribute to succeed and he’s also got to get the balance spot on. It must be like walking on egg shells at times for some, e.g. almost impossible.
It’s like with managers now, you have just one brief chance to win the players over – and even then, it still won’t be sustainable. Take Conte. Wins the players over, wins a premier league title. But then it’s not long before there is discord between players and manager as each tries to exert increasing control over the other. But if it comes at the cost of upsetting any of the players, the manager is swiftly sent out the door. So the cycle continues.
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