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I’ll say this Mak, I think our midfield, the way we set up, are the most interchangeable positions in our team whereby we can easily rotate them without a detrimental effect on the overall team. I wouldn’t say we have this luxury for other areas of the pitch so much. So it’s not so much that I see Fabinho as a bad player or anything. I don’t. But our midfield require more grafting and tactical qualities, so as I say, they’re more interchangeable. And I’d actually say because of that, Henderson fits us better than Fabinho does, because of his energy and pressing abilities. So I’d probably say we’d miss Henderson more than Fabinho.
I might be completely wrong on this, but my suspicion is that Fabinho was more of an advisory signing by the recruitment team as opposed to Klopp chasing him. Conversely, it does seem that Keita was a player that was chased by Klopp, and that wouldn’t surprise me, given his high energy and mobility around the pitch – something you associate with Klopp.
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Like Mak Nine, where have I tried to “downgrade” Messi’s achievements? I have done no such thing, just merely stated that Ronaldo has proved his achievements elsewhere. And that that will inevitably leave the question hanging over Messi as I said. As for the real best players line, I was just making that point, that the best players do adapt. I said Messi could well have done that if he left. And when comparing the two best players we’re inevitably going to pull up players on certain attributes here and there and compare performances. But I didn’t downgrade his achievements.
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No doubt Nine, but the real best players and managers can adapt to every circumstance and every league. If you look for example at Klopp, he may have a taken a year or two, but he’s adapted to the premier league by targeting more physical defenders like Van Dijk and he’s started pressing more intelligently rather than for the full 90 minutes. And the results are there for all to see. And it’s this adaptability that I think gives a lot more weight as an attribute. I agree Messi is probably the more talented out the two in terms of his boxes of tricks. And he may well have proved to be successful elsewhere. But it’s Ronaldo’s ability to be so widely successful and have such big game influence that I think gives a lot of weight to him, when weighing the two up.
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Yet Ronaldo managed to play in four different European leagues. Ronaldo has also led his country to a major trophy. He’d also be an easier fit into teams because he’s more robust and athletic. Messi I think needs more of a setup to operate best in. In that sense, perhaps Messi is the better team player in a certain set up, but Ronaldo the better individual who can lift things more single-handedly.
Where exactly was Messi at Anfield last season?? I would have been more fearful of a Ronaldo in such circumstances.
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I do think Messi should have tried a different challenge somewhere else though. As incredible as his stats may be at Barca, he ain’t half been in his comfort zone there, with the team largely built around him. Maradona left to Napoli, a somewhat weaker team and won them two titles. Not saying Messi wouldn’t have been successful elsewhere, but it will leave the question hanging after his career finishes.
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Just don’t think we’ve particularly missed Fabinho whilst he’s been out. The clean sheets seem largely to be connected with Gomez & Van Dijk (and goalkeeper). And many have been saying Henderson is in the form of his life recently, again whilst Fabinho has largely been out. We don’t seem to be scoring more or less goals without him either. Sure, as part of the team and the squad, he’s useful to have to share the load and give others a break. But we just don’t seem to miss him greatly since he’s been out. And for me when he has been playing, I just think he does get passed and beaten too easily at times.
As for Kante it was more a tongue in cheek comment really. But the point was his profile would be more suited to us – nimble, yet quick strong and full of energy.
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I wasn’t too fussed about the FA Cup, but I think it would peeve Fergie if Liverpool were to win the treble.
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Assuming there’s substance to the below story, then it epitomises the problem at these big clubs. A lot of these people on the board are basically like big kids playing the football manager video game – because they like some players they want them irrespective of how they are actually playing and fit in. Coutinho was another rush of blood to the head by Barcelona. Even Liverpool were still getting caught up in it not that long ago when they signed Sakho, with Ian Ayre at the time actually saying it was a “marquee signing”. He was one of the first players to be ditched by Klopp when he came in. The moral of the story: Big money corrupts.
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One team dominating is not a new thing, in fact, it’s the normal thing, certainly in the more modern era. Just look at much of the Ferguson era. The question we should be asking is why. People want everything now, in the present. There’s no patience anymore. Clubs are driven by greed, fear and ultimately irrationality. And the fans can be as much to blame as the owners. Fans demand big name signings, they get them, they fail, then they demand more. It’s rooted in a pleasure seeking activity that is simply looking for the next ‘hit’ like a drug abuser. We can talk about Klopp being special, unique, charismatic, etc. And all that’s undoubtedly true. But if you actually examine what he’s done, it’s not particularly groundbreaking. He has simply had the patience to wait for the right player, has learned more about the league and what he needed to adapt to it, and ultimately just enjoyed the ride and made sure all the players have enjoyed it and kept things together like a family. The blueprint has always been there, but like many things, others get strangled with fear and act irrationally. (Leicester are one team to buck such a trend). And fans get frustrated, and everyone else gets super rich off their backs. It is as I say, effectively a drug. We’ve got to snap ourselves out of such a mentality.
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Well, I mean more historically HH that we’ve been cherry picked by bigger clubs.
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How about we try and prise Kante away from Chelsea? Would be nice to be the cherry picker for once as opposed to the cherry picked.
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I’d hold on to Henderson because he still suits our pressing and high energy game we play. Fabinho I just don’t think we’d miss as badly and is someone we could cash in on (Italian club perhaps?), on the priviso that we find a more mobile alternative. I agree Keita needs to start staying fit.
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Mak, when the team plays better, particularly with more energy, it frees up more space for Henderson, and he can then play some very effective football in an attacking sense. But not sure if he’s got better for me. If you remember the home game to PSG last season, the team was full of beans and Henderson then played some lovely attacking moves up top. So it’s always been there, but he doesn’t take risks when the team isn’t playing with a swagger, or he just isn’t confident enough in such situations.
As for Fabinho, I think he can be a useful squad player. But as I said some time ago, the holding player position has evolved over recent years and you need to be a fast mobile player – that’s why Kante is probably the best in the business in that regard.
One might argue that the combination of Henderson & Fabinho results in a Kante player effect…but that’s costing us another player on the pitch, when, potentially, Keita could do that role or an alternative could be identified in the summer.
But I still want to see more goals from midfield – we can talk about how our system still works well with the setup it has. But we do need to be scoring more goals at times this season to make games more comfortable.
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Just to put a spanner in the works, if Henderson is in the form of his life, why hid he wait until the second half to lead and drive the turnaround?
Look we know the lad works hard, always has done, and follows the managers instructions which is why Klopp will always have a place for him. And credit it to him personally for fighting for his career years ago when Brendan tried to offload him to Fulham.
But as Mak alludes to, we are quick to forget his other performances. I remember for example Matip showing him up away to Sheff Utd when passing forward, with Henderson often playing safe.
And then he’ll have a better period of games and suddenly he’s player of the season according to some pundits?
For the record I don’t particularly rate Fabinho either. I think he can be slow and cumbersome and in some ways doesn’t really suit our play. As the evidence has proven, our clean sheets are largely down to the return of Gomez & Van Dijk.
I have to say, though his injury record isn’t great, I do like Keita. I think he’s very positive and has lots of energy and suits our style of play much more. He can be loose in possession, but you can live with that because he offers more going forward. It’s worth the risk. So I’d try and hold on to Keita.
But back to Henderson, as I say, there is much to admire in his attitude, work rate and personal integrity. But I just think his best games tend to follow periods where the rest of the team also plays well. In games where you need a spark, he’s not really the answer. I’d wager if both him & Keita had full seasons ahead of them, Keita would ultimately offer more. And Keita was starting to bang in more goals in his recent spell before injury.
In fact Keita has scored the same number of goals as Henderson but in just 16 appearances vs Henderson’s 32 appearances.
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Just to put a spanner in the works, if Henderson is in the form of his life, why hid he wait until the second half to lead and drive the turnaround?
Look we know the lad works hard, always has done, and follows the managers instructions which is why Klopp will always have a place for him. And credit it to him personally for fighting for his career years ago when Brendan tried to offload him to Fulham.
But as Mak alludes to, we are quick to forget his other performances. I remember for example Matip showing him up away to Sheff Utd when passing forward, with Henderson often playing safe.
And then he’ll have a better period of games and suddenly he’s player of the season according to some pundits?
For the record I don’t particularly rate Fabinho either. I think he can be slow and cumbersome and in some ways doesn’t really suit our play. As the evidence has proven, our clean sheets are largely down to the return of Gomez & Van Dijk.
I have to say, though his injury record isn’t great, I do like Keita. I think he’s very positive and has lots of energy and suits our style of play much more. He can be loose in possession, but you can live with that because he offers more going forward. It’s worth the risk. So I’d try and hold on to Keita.
But back to Henderson, as I say, there is much to admire in his attitude, work rate and personal integrity. But I just think his best games tend to follow periods where the rest of the team also plays well. In games where you need a spark, he’s not really the answer. I’d wager if both him & Keita had full seasons ahead of them, Keita would ultimately offer more. And Keita was starting to bang in more goals in his recent spell before injury.
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I think what you realise as you watch things, just like when Utd were dominating – it’s not necessarily that we play out of this world in every of the 90 minutes in each game, it’s that we have a very good goalkeeper who makes key saves in a game, CBs that make few mistakes, and we create multiple chances of which we are clinical enough to score at least a few. And we obviously work hard. It is in these margins in which we are better than everyone else, even if in a game, we don’t always look particularly spectacular or sometimes the other team competes very well like vs Wolves.
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Didn’t see the game last night, but I do think Pep can go over-idealistic at times at the back, if not be naive. No better example of this than the Barcelona Bayern game some years back when Pep tried to go for it against Barca and took huge liberties at the back, with it backfiring.
However, this can work conversely. At Spurs last year in the first leg of the CL, Pep went over cautious, which again, proved his ultimate undoing.
Whilst Pep remains one of the top coaches, I think what this does say is that he can get easily spooked by fear of the other side. That’s not to say he shouldn’t still adapt, but he does seem to overcompensate at times or tries to be too clever. But fear does get the better of him, which is a big reason imo why he’s yet to replicate his CL success elsewhere, though this does seem to be more of a pattern in cups than the league. It’s as though he needs to keep his league hat on in the bigger cup games and just concentrate on the best pragmatic way forward as opposed to be trying to be too clever.
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One area of concern going forward, as I alluded to recently, is that Klopp’s strength and weakness is that he clearly likes to work with a closely knit group of players whom he trusts and develops a huge mentality with, as we’ve seen. However, as we saw in the FA Cup, there’s not much depth there (though Klopp I think has got frustrated with the fitness issues of the likes of Shaqiri and Keita).
And look at the front 3 – if they’re all fit, he never ever changes them be it a league game or CL game. So whilst it may help our mentality to have this closely knit group, one only has to look at what happened at Dortmund, to worry about injuries and eventual burnout.
There is one good thing about losing Mané & Salah in January 2021 for the AFCON – it should force Klopp into finding alternatives in the summer (assuming neither wants a new challenge somewhere else). But we’ve got to get better and more reliable depth. A lot of this team have been playing continuously for the past 2 years, sometimes without a proper break in the summer due to international tournaments.
What happened at Dortmund should be ringing big alarm bells with Klopp.
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If you examine Eriksen’s career, he had the opportunity to leave Ajax sooner than he did I think, but felt it wiser to stay and develop more. When Spurs came in for him, he probably saw them as a kind of Dortmund club who were sensibly run, the way they built the club upwards and obviously had stability and a good coach. However, just when Spurs should have taken the next step up, they didn’t. And Eriksen is obviously disappointed at that to say the least, and is now desperate to be at a big club who are going places and will take whatever he can, particularly whilst he’s at his peak.
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“It’s not just to rest muscles but also minds, including his own.“
Absolutely Mak. As I’ve alluded to above, this is why the winter break is sacrosanct to Klopp because of his smaller playing group vulnerabilities.
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