[Luckydestiny]

Was a really good thread stevo.

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[Luckydestiny]

Banjo, as jose was saying, spurs best business over the last few years wasnt just keeping the best players, it was keeping them happy and committed. I think the transfer window deadlines have unsettled spurs more than most because of the quality and importance of the players unsettled. I do hope for you that now its done and your squad is intact they all pull together again. Signs were positive yesterday I thought and I still think spurs are the best of the rest. Its amazing how much damage it can do to squad morale and chemistry when just one or two players are unsettled.

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[Luckydestiny]

Nah, you are out of order 442 and you are the one engaging in one upmanship which is very ironic considering your earlier protests, clear as day if you follow our posts from yours at 11:10am

I clearly didnt tell you to shove your post, I told you to shove one paragraph, the one in which you said your behaviour on here was nothing to do with a grudge when evidently it is, it has to be as all I had done up to that point is argue the points YOU BROUGHT UP about OUR club, you decided to get personal at 4:52pm and and I remained civil up until that one para I told you to shove and stand by that.

Now, you quickly turned the debate away from the points you yourself raised, but just to clarify, these are the points I chose to debate

1) You claimed the arguments from all chelsea fans about playing kante deeper were stupid, I simply argued they were not and why, giving currently he is the only mid we have that can really defend.

2) You argued we should ditch the “antiquated” 4231, when we havent even been playing it. we have been playing sarri’s 433 but without the “sarriball” and safety in possession, we are too direct leading to too many turnovers which is leaving us far more open than when we played the 433 under sarri but with different tactics. We need to remedy this, and as above its fine if you dont see kante deeper as the solution, but if you think the suggestion is stupid surely you have a better alternative?

3) You were talking about dyche as an alternative to lamps, I thought it was funny that 442 kick and rush excites you but 4231 is “antiquated”, and made a quip abut it, thats just banter.

4) You claimed chelsea fans were fickle and will be wanting lamps out by xmas, I do take exception to that as a) if anyone generalised about another set of fans like that it would clearly be out of order, and b) the match going chelsea fans arent actually that fickle, and no more than most fans of top clubs anyway. It was a poor comment but you a free to say it, no probs there. But as free as you are to say it, I am free to question you.

Like I said 442, my posts on this have been fine, feel free to engage or dont engage, but you cant keep posting as you are all the while claiming I am the issue here, its not on mate. I have taken the time to read things back and check myself here, and I dont think I am out of order at all.

All the best.

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[Luckydestiny]

p.s 442, what name calling?

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[Luckydestiny]

442, that was directed very specifically, ironic that you were talking about one upmanship eh?

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[Luckydestiny]

I still favour spurs for 3rd too banjo

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[Luckydestiny]

442, Can you please point out where I claimed you were not allowed to have an opinion on chelsea fans? It really annoys me when people respond to arguments that way, it is just pointless. Arguing against your opinion is not denying it 442, and if you claim an argument is stupid dont be surprised if those that disagree debate it with you, thats what it is about right?

Also why say “we see things differently” as though that it is supposed to surprise or enlighten me? I know we and most here see things differently which is why I engage in conversations and ask questions like “what would you do to tighten things up defensively if its not playing Kante deeper?” Because I know there will be other opinions and iseas that I cant think of and I want to know of them.

Like I said, all my posts to you since your initial post @11:10am have been fine, the only excuse for you treating me like this is that you are indeed holding a grudge, so you can shove your last paragraph where the sun dont shine because you are lying.

What was your name on old forum anyway, was it 442? Cant remember you at all. Only Chelsea fan I really got in to heated argument with was Ashcfc that I can remember, but who hasnt argued with him!? Oh and the wise one, of course, but again who hasnt argued with him?

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[Luckydestiny]

Brian,

I did a little fact finding, inspired by both the chat about Fernandinho and then watching Xhaka today, found a decent source here https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/fouls and searched by filtering for fouls committed by midfielders.

Turns out Fernandinho is 17th in list of top fouling midfielders (not just defensive mids, includes eriksen and de bruyne etc), with 40 fouls committed which could simply be read as he commits at least one foul per game.

What I find interesting about the list of 16 players that committed more fouls than him is that the aforementioned Xhaka and also pogba are the only players above him who play for teams in the top 6 last year.

I think it makes sense that the better the team, and the more of the ball your team has, the less tackles are needed to be attempted, and the less fouls should be made.

Interesting then that the team with the greatest ability to keep the ball and who have less attempted tackles has a midfielder who commits more fouls than any other of the defensive mids in the top 6 bar Xhaka (who is there because he is terrible and cant tackle) or Pogba who is there because he cant tackle either and is trying to be a whole midfield in one for utd. Man city were 20th in tackles made last year according to the prem league site which suggests their midfielders would be expected to make fewer fouls.

for comparisons, kante made 35 fouls last year but is understandable as makes high attempted tackles, number of successful tackles was 74. In comparison to this fernadinho’s 40 fouls looks disproportionate next to his number of successful tackles, 57.

Some other top 6 defensive mids for comparison (didnt use spurs players as their defensive mids did not play comparable number of games they seemed to rotate a lot)

*** fouls ***** successful tackles ***** Ratio of good tackles/fouls

Fabinho 29 ***** 59 ***** 2.03
Henderson 26 ***** 46 ***** 1.77
Matic 27 ***** 50 ***** 1.85
Jorginho 33 ***** 76 ***** 2.3
Torreira 38 ***** 65 ***** 1.71
Xhaka 45 ***** 52 ***** 1.16
Fernandinho 40 ***** 57 ***** 1.43

What the ratio on right represents is how many successful tackles are made per foul, as you can see with exception of the truly dreadful Xhaka, Fernandinho scores lowest here and pretty much averages at 2 fouls to every 3 fair tackles.

What surprised me about this considering the context of the discussion is jorginho having the “best” numbers on paper here, who makes over twice as many good challenges as he does bad.

I know this has probably bored the life out of all who have read it but it fernandinho’s numbers make sense to me in terms of his reputation.

He does attempt less tackles than most because he doesnt need to tackle as much as most. BUT because of the way city play and the numbers they get forward, when he does have to tackle, he really has to tackle. Unlike Jorginho who often passes off an attacker to a team mate rather than always have to commit to difficult challenges, Fernandinho has to be decisive. He either takes the ball or the man, but by hook or by crook that counter has to be stopped.

It is professional fouling, and on further reflection Brian I dont think it is unfair that he has the reputation as a professional fouler.

All that being said I would take him at chelsea in a flash, even now. I think he is the best in the league at what he does, and what he does is priceless.

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[Luckydestiny]

Sorry 442, I dont remember you mate. But going at each other sounds like a two-way thing to me, so why you want to hold it against me I dont know when we could just be adults and move on. I am sorry you feel this way, but it has nothing to do with what we discussed today, I believe I was perfectly polite in my posts, and also that you were needlessly inflammatory and disrespectful towards fellow chelsea fans in the initial post I responded to.

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[Luckydestiny]

Yeah defo not a pen.

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[Luckydestiny]

Jose said before the game he thinks both managers would be happy to draw today, I think he was right but both teams gave everything to try and win in the end and it was a great finish to the game.

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[Luckydestiny]

Is it comfy behind your sofa banjo?

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I hope you hold on for a draw banjo but fear arsenal will win it now. From chelsea POV, even though we finished above you last year I still see utd and arsenal as chelsea’s direct rivals this year and would rather you get all 3 points today.

Saying that everton, leicester and wolves are chelsea’s direct rivals by the looks of it this year to be fair.

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[Luckydestiny]

442, Im not following you mate, one upmanship?

Your initial post (read it again mate @11:10am, did you not expect a response?) was full of opinions and I have engaged with them, one of those opinions was that the arguments from some chelsea fans about playing kante deeper were stupid. I disagreed, gave my reasons why, and asked you what your alternative suggestions would be to tighten us up defensively. What is the problem?

I am a little aggrieved you have suggested I am out of order here mate (I have read back through the posts and just do not understand), Its not one upmanship, its simply what I thought footie forums were about, discussing and debating the game.

No offence intended though mate, I’ll just imagine replies are blocked when I read your next post, in the understanding you just want your opinions known, not debated. That is fair enough.

All the best

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they’ll be fine adlab, no need to worry about them, they wont have to play the european champions every week! i get what you are saying, but all teams have bad games

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of course no probs 442, I was only debating your claim that the arguments for playing kante deeper are stupid, in your different way of seeing the game what is your suggestion on how we tighten up defensively with what we have?

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[Luckydestiny]

But similar to us 442 they are stacked with attacking mids but dont have any one better than kante to play the most defensive role, thats why I dont think it is stupid to argue for us to do the same

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[Luckydestiny]

Deschamps opinion 442

““I saw that his coach preferred to see him in a more offensive position because he has a player, Jorginho, who plays in this position a little lower. [But] when he is with me in the French national team, he has a great importance in this lower position. He is very important defensively and in the organisation of the game.”

From this link, worth a read, https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2019/2/20/18232797/kante-remains-of-great-importance-to-france-as-defensive-midfielder

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[Luckydestiny]

50/50 for me bricky, I still thinks spurs have the better team over all. no form or confidence going in to a derby is not ideal, but derbies are not just any other game and form seems to play less of a factor.

As a neutral here I am looking forward to it.

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442, it may work mate, but if kante is in opposition 3rd when the oppo counter, and jorginho is on his own in front of back 4, our defence will continue to be as porous and we will need 3 goals a game to win.

I agree we dont have the squad to be successful in any system, but that is pointless to think about now as we can do nothing about it. We have to concentrate on making the most with what we currently have which is why I think fully utilising kante’s defensive abilities when fit is a priority, even if it means he cant get forward enough, as I do not see anyone else in the team that even comes close to him as an option to protect the back 4. You do agree the back four needs more protection right?

btw, 4231 antiquated? Is that why you are so keen to bring in dyche and his revolutionary 442 kick and rush tactics? 🙂

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