[Luckydestiny]

Too right Hightown.

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[Luckydestiny]

Koulibaily (Christensen), Chilwell (Alonso), Milinkovic-Savic (Barkley), Sancho (Pedro) Werner (Giroud).

That would be awesome AMZ, if we can sell enough players for their value we might be able to manage it in theory, although in practice I would be happy with 3 players of that quality between now and August.

FYI, werner has 6 months left on his contract, free in summer or 30m release clause for Jan. We wouldnt be the only ones in for him though, so while he is my choice too, dont see it happening.

Would like Chilwell too, but I am sure Leicester would reject the 55m you estimated his fee to be. He would prob be 65m+ and considering we have plenty of young english player already I think the sensible thing for the club to do is look abroad for the positions we need filling so we dont have to pay the premium that always comes with buying an english player.

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[Luckydestiny]

Bottom line here for me is that all the arguments used to support the idea that Poch overachieved at spurs dont stand up to scrutiny. Having said that, by no means could any one argue that he under achieved.

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[Luckydestiny]

I couldnt resist Banjo;

Here’s an idea, instead of comparing Kloop’s and Poncho’s records by using data involving what Harry Redknapp did in the 2008 season, why don’t we compare data that’s a little bit more pertinent? I know, how about we compare the three complete seasons when both managers were managing against exactly the same opposition teams? Perhaps the 2016/17, 2017/18 & perhaps the 2018/19 seasons? One would think nobody could disagree with those stats as we have exactly the same data for both managers against exactly the same opposition.

Well, here it is…

Points totals for spurs and pool under Poch and Klopp for seasons 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19;

SPURS 86,77,71, -TOTAL-234
POOL 76,75,97 -TOTAL-248

Remember this was spurs at their peak under Poch versus a developing Pool under Klopp, and you have to accept it this time as like you said “One would think nobody could disagree with those stats as we have exactly the same data for both managers against exactly the same opposition” ?
If only you actually paid the slightest bit of attention to the table I compiled and posted for your convenience, eh? ?

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[Luckydestiny]

Hopefully we can actually read this table 🙂

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[Luckydestiny]

You are indeed Banjo… read my last post to you again, and if you still dont get it, I will see you in the morning 🙂

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[Luckydestiny]

Thats fair enough Parklane, I can totally understand that from a spurs fan, but please dont get me wrong here. I am not arguing that he is a bad manager or did a bad job, I am arguing that in no way, shape or form has he proven himself to be amongst the best managers in the world during his spell at spurs.

He is worthy of every bit of love he has from spurs fans all over the world and I wont begrudge him that. If he goes on to prove he is great I will be the first to write a big post celebrating him, believe me mate.

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[Luckydestiny]

Back to you, Nancy boy!

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Chucky, let me put this to bed regards the Klopp v Poch stats

The first stats I looked at were Pochs 202 games compared to the prev 202 games, just to see how much spurs improved.

Then Mak said that comparison is meaningless as if you did the same with Klopp and compared the games under him to the same period before, the stats would also be unimpressive. So I then did it for Klopp and low and behold there was a real noticeable uplift.

The point of these wasnt to compare them at all, it was looking for signs of impact, I only included them in this Ppost as an introduction in to the table I did on the top 4 battle over the last 10 years, that is what I am presenting as the real evidence here, the poch and Klopp stuff was the starting point that motivated me to look at the complete picture over the last 10 years to get a better perspective.

With regards the example you just posted, I dont need to explain to you why comparing Poch’s achievements with a ready made squad to klopps with a team in building os stupid mate, you know that. It is fairer to compare each’s FULL tenure to what their clubs were doing before.

But like I was saying, that difference only motivated me to look deeper, and it is the information in the below table that is the base of my argument here.

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[Luckydestiny]

Why not Poch Stevo? 😉

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[Luckydestiny]

Never really understood this award, glad I dont have a vote, how the hell are you supposed to decide?

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[Luckydestiny]

Come on big boy 🙂

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[Luckydestiny]

P.s steveo

it aint all about money spent either mate, you were criticising pool for not spending last summer and look where they are despite not signing Pepe mate 🙂 Its about the players at the disposal of the managers, if you truly believe spurs were in a worse place and needed more investment when Poch took over than Pool when Klopp took over, then why does the points totals achieved by these teams in the years before each manager took over show the exact opposite. I am submitting to the stats because MOTD highlights and media narratives dont lead to balanced opinions!

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[Luckydestiny]

Stevio and Nancy boy,

I have made my argument and you have had fun picking it apart.

Now why dont you let me know how you rate Poch and why, and I can pick your opinions apart instead 🙂

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Steveo

there is so much more to concider.

The relative quality of the squads when the manager took over, their league positions, the money they spent leading up to and beyond that point etc….

Look at the performances of spurs the 5 years before Poch took over relative to Pools performances. Spurs were doing better, had a better squad and needed less investment than pool to compete for the top 4. Look at the top 4 picture before Poch, then after, it was easier for him than it was for Harry and Villas Boas mate, your lot and utd have more to do with spurs getting in champs league regularly than poch does, except for the 86 point season they were just achieving what spurs always did.

And as for the Money argument, come on steveo, pool only went mental on a kepper and a centre back, why should this make all the difference? Poch had Lloris, Toby and Jan, he didnt need half the investment Pool did, and lets not pretend pools squad is miles away from spurs even now mate.

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[Luckydestiny]

Chucky, It doesnt really matter that the total games used for each manager in that comparison are not exact, but if you really believe they should be equal, then count the extra 45 pool games pre Klopp as well, and guess what? His achievements are even more impressive than Poch’s. Besides like I said, the averages before are only useful to get a rough measure of where the clubs average performances where before the managers came in to compare with after, the differences in gains are significant whether you accept it or not. All I deduce from it is that Klopp clearly had a positive impact on pool, but Poch overall didnt really have any significant impact on the PL points spurs were achieving overall. I am not saying poch increased points per game by 0.08 and Klopp by 0.44, so klopp is 8 times better or anything ridiculous like that.

The main point of my post however was how the challenge for top 4 was easier for spurs under Poch than before, not because of Poch, but because Utd and Arsenal went to shit and chelsea were also shit every other season. This is what the table I posted shows, this is what I am arguing, and this you can not argue against. Without any significant improvement in results, Poch got spurs into CL regularly, and this was because the teams above him regressed more than it is about the fractional gains made by Poch, that is the reality mate, the stats show it…and you know it! 🙂

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[Luckydestiny]

…and maxing, relaxing all cool, shooting some b-ball outside of the school?

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[Luckydestiny]

Outcome 8: Mason Mount to win they young PFA player. and win the FA cup.

Would take that CM!

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Yes Chucky, the teams started in different positions and Klopp had a lower bar to raise, but he didnt just raise it to match Poch, he went much higher, and they were facing the same competition mate.

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You are right chucky, Klopp took over a team with a much worse average, because they were a much worse team when he took them over than spurs were when Poch took them over. Under Klopp Pool become a much better team than they were…progression.

The gain under Poch is far less impressive. Yes it is 0.08 and 0.44 respectively which looks minimal, but in terms of gain in points per season this translates to approx 3 points per season more for Spurs under Poch than before and 16.7 points per season more for Pool under Klopp.

Pepe’s average “improvement” would be pretty damn low, and therefore he would be an “average” manager too!

No need to even look in to that chucky, you already know that city didnt get 100 or 98 points under pellegrini or mancini, there has obviously been an uplift and you will see it if you look at the table in my second post!

Man city with Pep (126 games) 301 points = 2.39 per game
Man City 3 seasons before Pep (114 games) 231 points = 2.04 per game
( if you extend the fixtures back further to get 126 games for period before pep, then Peps gain will only increase as they did even worse)

Pep Made City considerably better, it is proven by the stats, Klopp made Pool considerably better, it is proven by the stats, Poch did a fraction better but in terms of chances of champs league qualification he was was aided greatly by the collapses of united and arsenal, it is clear in the points totals.

As for the rationale behind the number of games considered, well Poch had 202 games with Spurs and it is right to consider all his games, when I looked in to it I needed a measure of what spurs were doing before Poch to compare his results too, now doesnt it seem logical to choose the previous 202 games so the data sets are the same size? These are the data sets I was comparing at the time so seems fair they are the same size.

Same rationale then with Klopp, he had 157 games with Pool so I compared it with the 157 games previous.

When it came to comparing the increases of both managers the totals were divided by the respective games to get an average per game and so the different sizes of the sets are not problematic.

Besides all I was doing was getting a measure of the base level of each club before so can compare to after, averages over 3-5 seasons are a decent way of doing that. Any longer and the data gets less relevant, but ideally you would want the largest useful samples possible and in each case it seemed appropriate to use all the games each manager had over seen.

Like with Pep above, if you increase the games we use for the pre klopp liverpool average to 202 games to match the number of games we measure spurs on prior to poch, then Klopps relative gain will actually go up further, as the season we would be going into is the 11/12 season when pool got only 52 points!

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