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Sean, I actually agree with you. I would prefer that we go for it with the talent we have than sit back. What I was trying to say was that if you are going to use the tactic Southgate was using then you still need to have a counter-attacking outlet to keep their defence from pushing too high. Essentially that is how Leicester line up against the good possession teams. they sit deep, but the very threat of Vardy with a long ball over the top is enough to stop their defenders from pushing up too high on us. Southgate didn’t have that outlet with Kane as the sole striker and so that just allowed the Italian CBs to push higher and higher and press the hell out of us.
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I do really hope Southgate learns from this. I saw him make exactly the same mistakes in the last world cup. Kept going a goal up and then backing his players to defend the lead for the rest of the game. The reality is, the longer the tournament goes on the tougher the opposition you play and harder it is to achieve that tactic. In the WC, (I know this will sound biaised) if he wanted to use that tactic properly, he still needed to have an attacking outlet and Kane is not the right man for that. If you are going to invite pressure and territorial possession in your half then it was crying out for balls to be played over the top to keep their defence from pressing too high and Vardy was the perfect candidate for that role. We have enough speedsters in the team now other than Vardy to still do that.
I heard an interesting perspective on the Euros podcast earlier this week from a French commentator. He likened Southgate’s approach very much to Deschamps’ during the WC. He said that Fnrech supporters were really critical of him and his very pragmatic and conservative style and the overwhelming sentiment was that the people wanted them to play more expansively. However, he got them success. The big difference between Southgate and Deschamps though is that once France got the latter stages of the tournament they started to back their own ability and aim to dominate their oppositions. Southgate did not, he kept with the same formula.
As I say, Southgate has done this in two successive tournaments now and it’s fair to say that his approach is good enough to get you to the latter stages of a major tournament but not enough to win it. Can he be more positive next time around? I assume no one is just happy to make semis and finals? We want to win stuff, right? If so we have to take gambles and back ourselves at some point_____________________________
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When I saw him bring on Sancho and Rashford at the death it was obvious it was so that they could take pens, I was interested to know Sancho’s experience taking pens too. Was very shocked when he took off Hendo as I thought he’d be certain to take one. Gotta say, Maguire’s pen was sublime!
Players I thought would take one were Hendo, Kane, Grealish, Philips & Rashford.I think what you’re saying about Grealish is harsh Harry, but the points you make I do actually agree with regarding Grealish. I think everyone has rated him way above his actual ability.
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If he does decide to stand down, I’ve love to see him stay on in some capacity. He’s clearly done some really positive things with this team, I just think he needs some guidance around tactics
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But, I do agree with your underlying point. At the end of the day, to truly control a game, you need to control the ball and to control the ball you need to have the ball. Southgate’s tactics from day one he has been in charge is not about that, especially against better teams. He takes the very conservative and pragmatic approach. It’s what has got us to the final but it’s also what’s lost us the final. You live by the sword, you die by it. I would like to see him build from this and start instilling more belief in some quality possession and attacking football. He has progressed, I think since WC2018. He seems to have learned a lot defensively, but in doing so we’ve lost the attacking verve we had in that WC.
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Yeah you can. You can get it (hypothetically) by having 60-40 in the first half and by only having 20-80 in the second half. I don’t think it was as clear cut as you state it was.
Also, if we go on possession alone, then England should never have got to the final, you could argue. Their entire tactics are not to dominate ball possession (much to my dislike and part of why I am not a fan of Southgate’s)_____________________________
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I too was surprised by Hendo going off, I thought he would be a sure fire pen taker
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Nah, I think pens plays an important part of what makes our game so great! There is no other sport on earth that has the suspense and drama that football has and pens plays an important role in that. No one wants joint-winners status!
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I have to disagree with you there Mightymoos. I think we were the better side in the first half, they completely dominated every minute in the second, we took the first half of extra time and then second I think was just playing for pens on both sides
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Bugger! A good final to watch though, lots of ebbs and flows. I think if anything this proved that Southgate’s fine margins tactics are our undoing here. Shows that even the best defence in the comp can concede unlucky goals if you invite continued waves of pressure on yourselves. Credit to Southgate though, he’s achieved what legendary coaches for England couldn’t and so for that he should be praised.
Thought Mount was lucky to start even before a ball was kicked, he did nothing the whole game. Philips yet again a one-man midfield. He is collossal! Regardless of the pens, for which you can’t fault anyone, the occasion got to Saka, he was very poor and thought Sancho should have come on earlier instead._____________________________
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I see UEFA blocked that youtube clip, so here it is again.
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No Chucky, I think there are two completely separate debates. They are:
Did Sterling dive?
Was it a pen?
The two can be mutually exclusive.I think, without doubt that Sterling did not dive. The contact from both sides forming a sandwich shows clear contact, twice from two different defenders. By the point that the second contact is made, he doesn’t even have a foot on the floor and so has no chance of staying on his feet.
As for whether that was enough to give a pen, I think is a completely separate debate. I agree, you would feel agrieved if your team was on the receiving end, but there is definitely contact and when you make contact in the box you are opening yourself to refs being forced to make a decision. I think it’s a pen but I wouldn’t have been that fussed if it hadn’t been given. The Kane foul was far more clear a pen for me than Sterling’s
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so are you saying that after seeing those last two videos at those angles, you would have given Sterling a yellow if VAR allowed it?
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reminds me a little of this incident over here in Aus nearly 10 years ago.
All the replays suggested there was no contact at all from the Perth player. A day later they managed to find a replay that clearly showed there was contact with his back leg which sent him off balance caused him to airswing. On top of that, the late Liam Miller (who allegedly committed the foul), some years later admitted he clipped his back leg causing him to go off balance. Everyone swore blind Berisha dived and that no way could someone react like that from the contact he got. The later replays and subsequent Miller confession proved otherwise. Yet so many physics experts masquerading as fans were sure it was a dive. It seems there always has to be a villain!_____________________________
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Agreed, those two clips posted are absolutely conclusive that there was contact. Dermot Gallagher did a piece on Sky stating why he agreed that VAR made the right decision once the ref had called it. He said it was “harsh” but by the letter of the law it’s a pen. I’ll state again, when you are running at speed and you get the slightest of sideways touch on your ankle or knees, you are going to fall over, end of. Chucky, refer back to my ankle taps comment. Happens all the time in Union and sends a 15st player to the ground. Don’t see why football is any different. It’s simple biomechanics and gravity
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I think there is a big difference between diving and what we saw with Sterling yesterday. For me, diving is what we used to see Mr Klinsmann do so incredibly dramatically. Sterling and other fleet-footed pacey players the world over, rely on being light-footed and sometimes the slightest touch is enough to send you tumbling simply through your own bio-mechanics (ever seen a tiny little ankle tap send a union winger to the ground???). This is no different. I have no doubt, from the angles I’ve seen that Sterling got enough contact at the speed he was going to warrant him being sent to the ground. The next question, and the most important one IMO is, is it a foul though???? I personally think it was, but sometimes you see them given and other times you don’t. Remember the last WC where even the most minute of touches was overturned by VAR to be given as a pen? That happened a lot in that WC. The ref believed it was a pen and VAR had to try and prove otherwise. Was there contact? I don’t think anyone can say there wasn’t. So VAR had to go with the onfield decision. Those are the rules
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Yeah I saw Maguire remonstrating immediately and assumed it was because their wall moved just before the kick was taken into the Eng wall. Ref didn’t seem to care, sort of makes a mockery of the system if they don’t use VAR for those moments
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I thought it was a pen, I saw one angle where he blatantly got clipped. A few other angles suggested there was nothing. I do, however agree that the two balls should have been called up. Also looked like a clear pen on Kane.
Also thought Kane really imposed himself more on the game today, especially moreso in the link up play. The most we’ve seen of him in the whole tournament so far_____________________________
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Not the greatest performance but have to commend the players’ attitudes! They stayed positive, which was great to see.
I thought Sterling was unbelievable. TO still be running with so much energy in the 120th min was great to see. Walker and Philips were massive too_____________________________
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@DirtyHarry, I make no excuses for the fact that Leicester won the league with a combination of a great team spirit and playing style gelling as well as it being the perfect storm of others around them either going through significant transitions and a change in the old guard. Remember, Arsenal finished second that season !!!!!! Arsenal! Spurs were the insurgent. Man U were a basket case, Chelsea were suffering Jose’s third season syndrome, City were still getting to grips with Pep’s tactical inception, Liverpool were only just starting to build. We would never have won without all of those circumstances conspiring. The big difference between our win and England at the moment is we had a brilliant team spirit (some might argue England have this) AND a team really gelling in the flow, I don’t think even you can argue England have this right now.
@ MancMike, I agree, I really hope to be proven wrong and we win and win with style. I’ll happily take that egg on face._____________________________
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