Week 28: Bloody international break!!

[Luckydestiny]

And Ed, regards the expectations, my opinion is you can’t expect more than the resources provided would deserve relative to opposition.

If you don’t have wages comfortably in top 4 can’t expect to comfortably finish top 4. Spurs don’t.

Based on the resource at Chelsea we of course should be challenging next season, although we will see what the squad and wage bill is relative to the opponents at that time.

At this time it is clear the chelsea is massively underachieving.

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[Editor]

I just don’t think you can only base anything on wages alone Lucky. Say Chelsea come in at similar wages to Spurs for arguments sake. Are we going to completely dismiss the fact that Potter would have had an unprecedented amount of spending in a single season and solely look at the wages his club pays? The fact he has been able to pretty much get an entire new squad is huge. It’s not in any way fair to compare that to someone who comes in with a bloated squad of players who may have tons of players who are not good enough ordont suit that manager’s style. If he happens to have a higher wage bill (because of stupid decision making before he joined) you can’t in any way suggest the expectations should be similar to someone like Potter. This is the thing, there isn’t a simple metric which isn’t flawed in some way. People tend to pick the metric that best suits their agenda. I myself am guilty of it.

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[Luckydestiny]

Not entirely agreeing but I am to a degree.

The wages should be proportional to quality in the squad and so if chelsea and spurs both have wage bill of 150m and one club has clearly better players then that club is getting more bang for its buck.

Now of course if it was the case next season for sure the expectations would still be much greater on chelsea because of many of the reasons you cite but over 5 or 10 years it would become redundant and actually in shirt term you are ignoring the fact that we don’t know yet if the players are worth it and just like spurs, the team hasn’t been built for one manager.

Let’s not try to use the chelsea as a base for anything here because we both know how crazy and exceptional the circumstances at the club are right now. But ultimately if we go in to the season with a wage bill considerably lower than city and utd next season I won’t he expecting a title unless the players prove otherwise, if we go in to the season spending the same or more on wages the club is obliged to deliver on it. If they persist on quantity over quality we will continue to underachieve.

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[Luckydestiny]

BTW, are you implying in your posts above that you think chelsea have done good business? You talk about another manager with a bloated squad and then contrast with Potter as though its different? Sounds the same to me, unless of course the new signings prove themselves to be of considerable quality and good value.

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[Editor]

But ultimately if we go in to the season with a wage bill considerably lower than city and utd next season I won’t he expecting a title unless the players prove otherwise, if we go in to the season spending the same or more on wages the club is obliged to deliver on it.

But are you then suggesting Utd should expect a title challenge if the wages would be higher than Chelsea despite us knowing Utd’s ability is less than their wage bill suggests based on recent performances? Again, you can’t judge a manager solely based on good/poor decisions way before the manager joined. I think we’re in a round about way saying the same thing. That you can judge a club and their business decisions over a longer period of time using wage bill vs league performance. I just disagree that you can judge a coach based on a wage bill that they had little to do with amassing. I think in order to judge a manager on wage bill vs league performance, you’d have to include minimum length of tenure so as to ensure that manager can take the credit/blame for the wage bill. Even then, it’s tougher than ever to do that judgement simply because a manager isn’t in control of the club in the same way they were before. Managers are often given players these days by committees and expected to get them performing. There are simply far too many variables at play to judge a manager on that metric. A club, over a longer period, fine.

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[Editor]

BTW, are you implying in your posts above that you think chelsea have done good business? You talk about another manager with a bloated squad and then contrast with Potter as though its different? Sounds the same to me, unless of course the new signings prove themselves to be of considerable quality and good value.

I’m merely suggesting that it would be flawed and unfair to solely judge Potter’s expectations on his wage bill alone as, unlike managers you’d be comparing him to, he’d have spent an unprecedented amount of money on transfers and (presumably) had a massive influence in those players being selected. Ie if he does have high earners there’s a good chance he’s had a hand in picking them, unlike managers you’re likely to compare him to.

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[Luckydestiny]

Yeah I clarified this Ed, in terms of setting expectations we shouldn’t expect more than our relative wage budget would project imo, other than that I wouldnt refer to it.

It’s about trying to find an objective basis for expectations, it’s far from an arbitrary stat used to further an agenda and I brought it up in relation to expectations that can justifiably held against spurs and their next manager.

Can you find one single stat that is available pre season that correlates with final league positions as consistently as wage bill does? I can’t which is why I refer to it.

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[Luckydestiny]

And Potter ain’t building this team btw, clear as day

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[Editor]

Oh I’m not suggesting there’s a better one Lucky. I’m suggesting that there isn’t one full stop. No single metric can alone determine expectations for a coach. There are far too many moving parts. Let me give you an example. There’s every chance Chelsea end up with a higher wage bill than City by this summer. Imagine for a moment both City and Chelsea change managers this summer. Would we then expect the Chelsea manager to finish higher than the new City manager simply because of a higher wage bill?

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[Mikus LFC]

Think we’re starting to dance on the head of a pin here. If I was a Spurs fan, my beef would be that the club is just set up to achieve top 4 each season as opposed to actually trying to win a trophy. That’s what mentally has to change at the club. They lost to Sheffield Utd this season in the FA Cup. They shouldn’t be losing to them. You had Sevilla winning 3 Europa Leagues on the trot some seasons ago. Spurs have got no where near that. And Sevilla are hardly a huge club. Both Poch & Conte have lamented the mentality of players at the club. That’s really what the debate should be about.

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[Luckydestiny]

“But are you then suggesting Utd should expect a title challenge if the wages would be higher than Chelsea despite us knowing Utd’s ability is less than their wage bill suggests based on recent performances?”

No Ed, I am suggesting that you should not expect to win a league unless you have a wage bill which is close to the the top. Utd should be challenging, Chelsea should be challenging. The longer we continue not to the greater the failure of the clubs first and foremost, as you rightly say it takes more analysis to judge a manager.

However as clarified, I only think it’s relevant to establish base expectations ie only expect to compete with top “x” number of clubs consistently if your wage bill is consistently in the top “x” of teams.

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[Chucky McChuckface]

#YEAHBUTWHATABOUTTHOSEWREXHAMS?

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[Luckydestiny]

Mikus, you are missing the point.

Please explain why spurs should and could do better than aim for top 4, with respect to their competition. Also how many clubs have fans who also have a right to be so demanding?

I can understand why you demand it of pool, because your club when run right can deliver more than top 4. Why can you demand it of spurs?

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[Mikus LFC]

I didn’t say better than top 4, I said win a trophy, ie a cup. Things like that help change the culture of a club, which is the point I’m making and what I think needs to change at Spurs.

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[Chucky McChuckface]

Wouldn’t it be bloody hilarious if the shipwreck of a season that my mighty spuds are having still resulted in them finishing above the 1st and 2nd big wedges that are Yooutd & Jammy Dodgers!! I shall remember this thread fondly and take the piss accordingly…

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[Luckydestiny]

Mikus, fair enough re cups but seems clear to me the priority is champs league qualification, and while you can have multiple priorities, you can only have one number one.

Conte especially does not give a shit about cups relative to league games and final league position. If a manager knows he can’t fight on all fronts his priority will show and translate in selection and performance.

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[Luckydestiny]

I am sure if top 4 was further away from spurs then the cups would be more important though, but they need to put everything in to league to have chance of top 4 to be fair.

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[Luckydestiny]

Thats exactly my point banjo mate 👍

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[Mikus LFC]

Lucky, no doubt. But it’s that mentality for me that has to change. I obviously understand how lucrative the CL is, but I just find it interesting that when most big clubs reset, they tend to fall out the CL, a new manager comes in, hits the ground running, wins a domestic cup, that then buys them more time at the club, fosters a winning mentality, investment follows and the club starts to rise. Yes ok, some big clubs still have greater resources with the investment that comes, but I still think Spurs would have achieved more had they followed down this path rather than seemingly targeting top 4 relentlessly. Players are just going to lose motivation with such targets compared to actual silverware.

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[Luckydestiny]

P.s Ed, that’s why it’s relevant to conte, while wage bill alone should not be used to judge a manager completely, it can allow you to argue rightly along these lines,

If a club has 5th highest wage bill, then its manager should not be criticised based on league position if the club finishes 5th or higher

That’s all it can be used for imo.

Of course conte still warrants a lot of criticism for his behaviour but that’s another thing altogether.

He behaviour makes less sense in my head because I thought all considered he could have left with head high in summer.

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