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Ya, the arguments are going to have a lot of the same avenues of discussion because of the nature of the game. Why would he choose us over Chelsea? Because he would get a lot of minutes and have a better chance at winning something. Some players of course want to be number 1 without any competition and that’s fine. Some are ok with having to fight for their place in the side and that’s fine too.
Our front 3 are amazing but there were plenty of games last season where I wanted to have someone of quality on the bench to come on for Salah, Firmino and VERY rarely but still true, Mane. I don’t want to go too far into the argument of “Do you play them through bad form or bring someone else on for the last 30, as an audition for the next match” because it is also a much played out discussion where both sides can make strong points, there’s no totally right answer… but I think options are important and you also want even your best players to realise that there is someone in the team who can put them on the bench if they aren’t performing.
If you commented on it and I missed it, what are your thoughts with regards to the age of each of the front 3? What I mean is, how and when would you replace them?
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I should of added that this whole no 1 striker thing works both ways. Say Werner was ok coming knowing he would not be automatic choice (and he made noises that suggested he would) then he would take up the status of a regular squad member. I cannot see Liverpool agreeing to pay him a wage that was not only above the norm for a regular squad member but also higher than star players Salah and Mane, ones he is would be in effect their deputy. But he can get the squad status and the wage he desires at Chelsea who also will probably play in the Champions League. If we did pay him 200k for being a squad member it could unbalance the whole pay structure at the club.
Regarding their age they are coming up to that critical point when we can still get huge money for them just before their abilities start to decline. From what I’ve read none of them are going at the end of this season but I can see that next year that could be different. Apparently, and this is just from a “in the know” internet kinda guy, that Salah still dreams of being the Real Madrid poster boy. His agent apparently approached Madrid last year with stupid demands and was laughed out of the meeting (it’s not unusual for top player’s agents to approach top teams even when no transfer is likely). I could see him making that move in a years time and we would still get mega bucks for him.
For the immediate future I could see Dembele make a loan with view to buy. His stock has fallen massively so he might be more open to a move as understudy, and whilst he has problems I think Klopp still highly rates him. Or somewhat more unlikely and more expensive would be Havertz. Maybe a purchase with a loan back deal so that he joins and takes Firmino’s place in a years time.
Firmino is a bit of one off type of player. There’s not many of his type around but he hasn’t been as effective this season as previous. Is it a time to cash in? If Havertz can probe to be able to play that role, and he has a few times but remember he is only 20 still, then he could be the man next year.
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I thought Klopp explained Liverpool’s views on where they are re the transfer market very well albeit it was to the German media.
These are strange times and very few Clubs will spend large sums of money this Summer, I doubt Chelsea would be spending money if they weren’t already sitting on a large pot of money from the Hazard and Morata sales.
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It does seem weird talking about transfers before this season has finished, and it is really only Chelsea’s early move for werner that has brought it about. I am just concerned that Liverpool don’t miss their chance to consolidate whilst in a position of ultimate strength.
Threeps – as for Dembele, I have to confess I know very little about him other than Barca spent a huge amount on him 2 or 3 years ago, but he hasn’t pulled up any trees since. Was it Dortmund they got him from? What was he like in Germany before his move? All I remember about him is that he had a couple of very good opportunities to really kill us off at the end of our defeat to Barca in the first leg of the semi final last year…and he missed them. 4 or 5-0 out there, and Divvy would really have had to perform at Anfield!!
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For Dortmund he was great. Quick, skilful, can use both feet and very direct. He had a few off field issues, like the time he trashed his rented house. The problem with that is that his landlord was a certain Jürgen Klopp!
For Barca he has had a lot of injury problems and never really settled. I’ve heard they are desperate to get rid of him but he wants to stay. His wage would be an issue.
A little snippet of his time at Dortmund:
I know youtube clips can even make Phil Jones look like a footballer but it shows what style he plays.
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Thanks for that threeps!
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Dembele is a very good player but is injured far to much it seems
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dembele has a lot of off-field issues. from what I read he irregularly fined for turning up to training late to not at all. he likes a party and struggles with the professionalism side of things. ability wise he will suit Liverpool but he doesn’t have the discipline or mentality for them.
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Does he sound a bit like Balotelli?
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No one can compare to the legend of Balotelli! But Paxton made some valid points above.
Here’s a bit of a long read about his issues. Think it’s from the end of last year but still valid.
He’s clearly talented but looks like he could be close to throwing all that talent away. He needs a change and maybe there’s a manager out there that could still get the best out of him.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2806752-the-trouble-with-barcelonas-wayward-star-ousmane-dembele
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Threeps, there were quite a few games now were Firmino wasn’t quite up to mustard for me. I’ve rated him since the first time I saw him play for us, so it’s not me having an agenda or anything. It is very hard to think about a replacement, unless Klopp were to change how we play a bit. Even then, it’s difficult.
I’ve thought about the front 3’s ages a fair bit, I mean they aren’t the only ones from the first team up or around there but I think other positions age slower, so to speak.
I don’t want to end up supporting only a red shirt, so it’s definitely hard for me to consider what i think might be the right choice for the club, going forward. it’s such a shame they all aren’t 24 but they are giving as good as any other players in world football and that’s all they can do.
When it comes to Salah, I don’t entirely agree with you. I think Salah is worth less than mane for sure but that was not the case 2 years ago. Salah could have been sold to real for 200m (if they had it) but now, even though Salah has is only matched by the very best in world football, in terms of his input in goals scored, I think his stock in world football is falling.
Maybe he’s a victim of Liverpool’s success and other superstars, or maybe that first season set everyone up to be disappointed.
I can see us maybe getting 120m for Salah, max (not counting potential virus reduction of transfer fees). I don’t want to sell Salah but we’ve got to consider what any money we get for him might do to keep us at or near the top. i just can’t see FSG letting the 3 lads hit 30 and then replace them with 3 superstars… so they will sell them off gradually, surely.
This is the party about being a fan that makes me most uncomfortable.
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28-30 is still a good age, in fact it’s probably regarded as a strikers and midfielders peak age. And do we need to sell just to get money back? If we win a few more leagues and a couple of Champions Leagues then would it be worth hanging onto those 3 into their 30s?
Aguero, Lewandowski, Messi, Suarez, Immobile, Ronaldo, Aubameyang, Benzema, Vardy (didnt realise he was so old!), Mertens are all still top players and aged 30 or over yet their clubs have not seen the need to sell them. They are still performing at the very top level.
I’m not trying to argue my case here just curious for people’s opinions and what I wrote is not necessarily mine.
I agree I can’t see them all hitting 30 or 32 or whatever and Klopp (or whoever is in charge) replaces all 3 at once. I would think understudies with potential that are gradually phased in would be a better bet. But not top superstars sitting on the bench waiting 3 years, as I’ve explained I do not see that as a realistic option. Unless of course one of them goes for big money then #mbappe2020 or whatever year it is might be on!
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“28-30 is still a good age, in fact it’s probably regarded as a strikers and midfielders peak age. And do we need to sell just to get money back?”
It is peak age, assuming the players have looked after themselves and are lucky with injuries. I’m not claiming otherwise but when it comes to potential transfers, the buying side will want those peaks years, or they will want resale value. both add up to the highest price of course and 28 for me is the absolute cut off in terms of getting the high transfer prices. There are definitely exceptions but they are just that.
Do we need to sell… That’s the million dollar question. Maybe FSG and Klopp have an agreement that he gets everything he can from this team, building the brand with titles or title challenges.
“If we win a few more leagues and a couple of Champions Leagues then would it be worth hanging onto those 3 into their 30s?”
My hopeful answer to this is “ABSOLUTELY” but I can’t see into the future, or into FSG’s plans. It goes without saying that it’ll be extremely difficult to replace those 3, even with huge investment. Most PL sides don’t retain the title but do we think it’s likely we will? You can never know, especially with the long break that we’ve been forced into.
“I’m not trying to argue my case here just curious for people’s opinions and what I wrote is not necessarily mine.”
Exactly the same for me. Im in no hurry to remove any of our star players. this is without a shadow of a doubt, my favourite Liverpool side since I’ve been a fan. It’ll be hard to replace these players financially but also in our hearts. I’m just trying to take a pragmatic look at things.
And you’re right regards all those players and I expect our lads to still be very good at 30 but their transfer value won’t be high.
The other fans on here might read this and think we’re nuts. I wish this great team could stay young forever but we have got to at least consider the future, even if we decide to get every last drop of legacy out of them…. hmmm now that i think of it, these guys deserve to create a lasting legacy here. It feels kinda wrong to consider the financials when they’ve given us such an incredible few years.
Anyway Threeps a good discussion man.
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Football is going through a great period of uncertainty few will spend big certainly on a net basis.
City apart I can’t see anyone really challenging Liverpool for the PL title next season and that might well have been behind the Werner decision plus 4 into a very successful front 3 is difficult and a player like Werner wouldn’t happily sit on the sidelines for too long.
If the CAS hearing goes against City as it well might that would give Liverpool another edge too for one/two seasons which may have also come into the owners thinking too.
There’s no guarantee that Liverpool won’t buy this Summer but the owners are being prudent from a position of strength and maybe given all the circumstances there’s only room for one big buy and Werner wasn’t considered the priority.
You can lose if you snooze although probably not next season.
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You definitely can lose if you snooze. Thats the worry and now Chelsea are after Havertz. That would be an incredible summer from them if they got himself and Werner. I definitely wouldn’t rule them out of anything then.
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Mak, Chelsea are in a bit of a privileged position right now because they are sitting on circa £140m plus from the Hazard and Morata sales although there’s still a meaningful surplus further big purchases will almost certainly have to be funded from sales out probably from a biggish player or two.
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There was an article in the Echo or Mirror I think that explained the amount of money Liverpool are losing at the moment. The players are still taking home their wages (around 100m a year) but with no gate income and having to pay back part of the 130m to the TV companies you can see the problem. At roughly 3m a game, if next season is to be played behind closed doors you’re looking at a loss of 100m that would not of been factored in. Chelsea will have a similar wage bill and obviously a similar lack of income but Liverpool’s problem is that the owners have exactly the same problem in the States with Boston Red Sox. They are hemorrhaging money badly.
There’s talk of no signings at all at Anfield for next season. All speculation at this stage of course.
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I think what is most important, and the thing Klopp seems to be doing, is not so much identifying the best player in the world, but the most effective. I think Salah epitomises this. He’s not quite looked the superstar he did in his first season, and some do get frustrated with him now. But if you look at the shift he puts in, his movement and work rate, he still almost always makes something happen. And in some way, it’s why Klopp went for Ox. Not so much a superstar, but a real worker who will work just as hard in tracking back as he does going forwards. And Fergie did a similar thing at Man Utd. If you broke a lot of those highly successful teams down, quite a few of those players you wouldn’t have labelled as world class. What really made those Utd teams were players like Rooney and Tevez – first and foremost, real hard working players that put a shift in. And obviously had the skill to boot. (I know many would label Rooney as world class, but I also don’t think people saw the work rate he put in). And what a fabulous player Tevez was to have in your team. Again maybe not a superstar, but damn effective. Indeed I remember many Utd friends at the time saying that Rooney was actually far more important than the superstar Ronaldo was in their team, with Ronaldo being more the icing on the cake, rather than the core piece of the jigsaw. And perhaps you could argue when Utd bought in players like Veron, they bought him in simply because they could rather than whether they actually needed him. So we know the dangers of such things.
So I’m happy for Klopp to obviously keep to what is a very good formula, but we obviously do need to ensure we stay at the top, which is arguably more difficult than getting to the top.
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Mak…I have a view on teams,players in/out. or no movement. I recently watched a few of City old games from a few seasons ago and I thought at the time, this is a great team how will it get better, well, in my view , it is all about a team evolving through a period, players do get older or move for different reasons, new youngsters are no longer youngsters. It applies to any team of course but if you think back to some of those great Liverpool sides you must wonder how it could ever change….but it does…and that is what football is about. The evolution of teams and how this is managed. We are both fortunate to have the best managers / Coaches in the world but we should know..it will not be forever. I have loved Silva and Augerro but we are now seeing the last of them. It is hard to imagine , who could possibly replace them and i guess this is exactly what you must be thinking if Mane, Salhah, Firmino etc goes. I am sure Pepp and Klopp have already thought this through more than once and another era starts for both of us. Enjoy
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Mikus…I have to agree with you about Rooney and Tevez there contribution to the teams they played in was immense I never liked Rooney but could not fault his work rate and Tevez was just the battler supreme. They certainly made a difference to Utd. It also makes me think I would rather have them in my team than Ronaldo, as good as he is because they can actually knit a team together when it gets tough, that to me , is the difference , not individual class
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