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I think clubs dominating have to have all the ingredients together at the same time, which is actually very hard to do and is therefore pretty rare. As others have said, you need the resources, the right CEO, the right director of football and the right manager. Man City had won titles before Pep but they were no were near the dominant side they are now under the former Spanish and Barcelona dream team of Soriano, Begiristain & Guardiola. As I say, the danger for City is that when Pep leaves, his fellow Spaniards could follow him.
Even though Chelsea have been very successful over recent decades, I wouldn’t say they’ve been particularly dominant, as a manager simply hasn’t been able to last long enough. But they have excellent “continuity success” as they had a very good owner and recruitment team over the long term. Indeed Chelsea prioritised having long term players rather than long term managers. Real Madrid, arguably have a similar strategy, as maybe Bayern Munich do, with players prioritised over managers and its probably the best formula for keeping a club at or near the top.
Man Utd under Fergie were the last team to be as dominant as Man City currently are because again they had all the right ingredients and wedded themselves to a long term manager. But such dominant sides are more susceptible to quickly unravelling when one party leaves, causing others to follow out the door as we saw at Man Utd when Fergie left and to some extent when Wenger left Arsenal.
One might say greed still drives whatever strategy a club goes for, but we know greed doesn’t just drive owners, it drives the fans too.
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Sean and Nil, 1st rule of footydebate remember? Dont upset the Chelsea lads! Although I used to love seeing the old Stamford Bridge with the cars parked behind the goal, always wanted it to my dads car there!
Rumours of Enzo to Chelsea and Caicedo to Liverpool doing the rounds. Think liverpool need the athletic type so would be happy with the Ecuadorian. Brighton really have a top scouting network don’t they?
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Not upset at all threeps there are a lot more important things in life to get upset about than what’s said on a football forum.
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Really interesting discussion. It would make a great debate. Lots of sensible points made by all. If we strip out our club bias I reckon we agree on the main principles.
I do think there is an element of sportswashing
Owning a successful EPL team helps to smooth opening commercial doors. Surprise SurpriseBut ignoring all of that money alone doesn’t buy success . You need ALL three of Eds key ingredients . At the moment, luckily we have them.
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Really fair summary Adlab. Wishing all a happy and healthy new year. For the record, myself and Nine have been trying to get hold of Brian but so far been unsuccessful. If you’re reading, Brian, do pop on and remind us all how much better things were back when football was a simple game π
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A Happy,healthy and peaceful New Year one and all.
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Happy new year you filthy animals!
What better way to see out the year than with another rendition of “your club is evil” which has been a number one hit for the 10 or so readers of footydebate for a number of years now.
Trying to be objective here and will start by saying the problem is not jealousy of other fans towards the clubs that have won things off the back of enormous investment. In very small specific cases maybe, but in general far from it in my opinion. The main fans to take issue with city, Newcastle, and chelsea before them, were fans of pool, utd and arsenal and their clubs have had more success than most clubs could dream of…jealousy doesn’t make sense.
The investment at city hardly made a difference to 99% of clubs in english football pyramid as the fans of these clubs knew their clubs couldn’t compete before city takeover. Nothing changed for them. Instead of Manchester United dominating, it is Manchester City and the level of money in the game was increasing exponentially from early nineties anyway, with the gap between big and small getting greater also, it was always going to get silly even if chelsea were never bought out by abramovich. Sure this level of investment can accelerate things slightly but not much as ultimately clubs can only spend what they have and Roman only bought chelsea.
So, let’s look at the arguments arsenal, pool and utd fans will raise against city and now Newcastle.
The oldest argument, which goes back to chelsea under roman too, is that these clubs would not be able to compete at the level they are if it were not for the massive investments received. This is not actually an argument, it is an undisputed fact and all city and chelsea fans that fell in love with their clubs before the takeovers know it to be fact. Despite the pseudo moralistic arguments that have been adopted over recent years to be used to further criticise the clubs in addition to this original one, I still think the real issue is the investment and its consequences. It’s not jealousy at all, it’s simply frustration that there is now another club that utd and pool need to contend with that wouldn’t have existed without investment. I believe this because up until relatively recently this was the only argument the majority would use in this debate.
The nature of the owners and source of wealth is only a concern because of the consequences of the investments to other teams. If abramovich only cleared chelsea’s debt but kept them operating like west ham no one would have given a crap where his money was from and it would have been an irrelevance to most footie fans up until Ukraine war. The problem was taking titles from utd and arsenal.
To further illustrate this, and loop back to my pseudo moralistic arguments statement. I hear all your concerns re state ownership of clubs and sport washing. I share the concerns, however, why are those who use these arguments also not willing to boycott the biggest sports washing event in history? I see all your comments in world cup thread, you didn’t have to put your TV on and support it….but I guess principles don’t really count for much, unless it suits your argument.
You don’t have the moral consistency and backbone to turnoff your TV to boycott the most blatant of sports washing on the biggest scale, but if a state buys utd or pool you will turn your back on a club you have loved all your lives just so you can be consistent with the nonsense arguments you have used against city and chelsea fans previously?
This is what I am going to do, I am going to continue loving Chelsea as I have done since I was 10 years old, and I will try to make sure that I will only assert moral superiority in the cases in which I have the courage of my convictions.
This site will make interesting reading if at least one of pool or utd are sold to “dodgy” owners in the near future.
βοΈ
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Jesus nine I was just wondering as they have spent a bit since the summer. It was a genuine question as they have new owners. Sorry wonβt mention chelsea again and genuinely wasnβt having a go. Happy new year mate
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Fair comments lucky, threeps actually blanked the World Cup because of what you outlined above
I totally agree, I donβt want owners like Newcastle etc but Iβll still support my team.
The whole money debate needs to stop as it clearly rattles all of us fans. No real objectivity and club bias does play itβs part.
Happy new year guys
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Did he Sean?
“Was a very good game, thought England probably edged it. England have a lot of young talent, Bellingham, Rice, Saka, Foden (bit ineffective tonight however) so the future looks good for you.The ref was terrible, must have been 3 blatant fouls that were ignored.”
Just one of his commentaries.
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Oh getting mixed up with someone else so lol sorry!
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Of course money helps, but a very good team only needs maybe 4-5 truly world class players in it because you need other attributes like hunger and leadership, not just skill. So you eventually reach a limiting factor in terms of how far money can get you. City didn’t need to spend a good chunk of what they’ve spent over the years to be as dominant as they are but they spend big because they can, which, admittedly helps inflate prices, so one could perhaps be more critical here, and spending Β£100 million on Grealish now looks like pure luxury.
One may also be critical of Chelsea’s use of the loan system but again, it’s actually come back to bite them such as when you look at some of the players they later let go such as De Bruyne & Salah. So overspending can actually do more harm than good.
City are currently so dominant because they have all the ingredients at the same time, but it won’t last forever. City have beaten Liverpool more over the years to titles as they are a more robust side with goals throughout the team whereas Liverpool have been more reliant on their front 3. So it’s down to more football philosophical reasons imo. You can talk about squad depth but Liverpool have let their midfield age without replacing them, so that’s a fair criticism of the club strategy, and there was clearly money there for a midfield replacement or why else chase Real Madrid for Tchouameni in the summer? Also, as good as Thiago can sometimes be, targeting an injury prone midfielder hasn’t been a particularly wise move overall. And was enough research done on Keita?
So yes, it’s important to be honest about these things rather than get lost in a financial debate about who’s spent what.
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Lucky, welcome back mate.
We already endured our nightmare with Hicks and Gillette. They nearly sold Liverpool down the river.
For what it’s worth mate, Chelsea were attracting Top Players from the late 90s; Vialli, Zola. No hand-me-downs there. I liked them and the club. I get a bit distasteful towards them because of previous Liverpool-Chelsea rivalry and the fact that they are a threat and hard to beat at the Bridge.
Roman and Jose took the club to the next level at the right time and it stop Manchester United as they themselves might have been on 21, 22 Titles.
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The Ideal model in my view should be different teams winning over a 10 year period and not just dominated by one.
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Wow Lucky. You’ve done well to miss all the criticism of the World Cup being in Qatar π. I genuinely don’t think I’ve met someone who thinks it was a good idea to give it to them for many reasons. That I chose to watch it anyway is simply because my love for football is such that I saw nothing to be gained from boycotting it. I liked that the teams did what they could to stand up and make a point. That they were threatened with bookings for the rainbow armbands was a real shame as I thought that was a great opportunity to stand up against their treatment of, such as, the LGBTQ community. You yourself spoke out against Saudi ownership on the Chelsea TT site Lucky so it’s very odd that you come on here trying to make out you don’t have a problem with it and anyone who does must be jealous π
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Lucky:
From a pure footballing POV they are our best bet as they will want us toppling city but given what we are going through now plus the nasty stuff going on in Saudi I donβt want it.
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“Wow Lucky. Youβve done well to miss all the criticism of the World Cup being in Qatar π”
No I did not, if there was not universal criticism my point would have no merit.
“You yourself spoke out against Saudi ownership on the Chelsea TT site Lucky so itβs very odd that you come on here trying to make out you donβt have a problem with it and anyone who does must be jealous π”
Firstly I explicitly stated that it is not about jealousy so the last point is needless. I did say I didn’t want Saudi ownership of Chelsea, how does that contradict anything I said in my post?
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Hi nil, happy new year mate π
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I will try to make sure that I will only assert moral superiority in the cases in which I have the courage of my convictions.
This site will make interesting reading if at least one of pool or utd are sold to βdodgyβ owners in the near future
I did say I didnβt want Saudi ownership of Chelsea, how does that contradict anything I said in my post?
So, basically, you didn’t want Saudi ownership but you’re criticising Utd and Pool fans for having a go at that type of ownership? You’re claiming in one point that you won’t be asserting any moral superiority and seemingly having a go at Utd and Pool fans for doing just that. Why, then, did you not want Saudi or the Rickets family owning your club? I don’t see how that’s any different from what the rest of us on here have said.
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